Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

topic posted Mon, September 14, 2009 - 10:41 AM by  Aschleigh
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
This artcile from CNN is an extreme example but how different a society do we live in? We have a lack of medical care for women who are sexually active, we have a lack of education for all people, we still have a differnece is salaries between men and women who do the same job? Poverty, etc.. American women put up with abuse for financial reasons ( IE survival) . Are we different?
As the last big discussion in ask a sexy man anything attests, financial differences are a huge source of fighting with couples. Can there be an equal relationship in this society ( or any other) with disperat income levels?



AMMAN, Jordan (CNN) -- A 12-year-old Yemeni girl, who was forced into marriage, died during a painful childbirth that also killed her baby, a children's rights group said Monday.

Fawziya Ammodi struggled for three days in labor, before dying of severe bleeding at a hospital on Friday, said the Seyaj Organization for the Protection of Children.

"Although the cause of her death was lack of medical care, the real case was the lack of education in Yemen and the fact that child marriages keep happening," said Seyaj President Ahmed al-Qureshi.

Born into an impoverished family in Hodeidah, Fawziya was forced to drop out of school and married off to a 24-year-old man last year, al-Qureshi said.

Child brides are commonplace in Yemen, especially in the Red Sea Coast where tribal customs hold sway. Hodeidah is the fourth largest city in Yemen and an important port.

More than half of all young Yemeni girls are married off before the age of 18 -- many times to older men, some with more than one wife, a study by Sanaa University found.
While it was not immediately known why Fawziya's parents married her off, the reasons vary. Sometimes, financially-strapped parents offer up their daughters for hefty dowries.

Marriage means the girls are no longer a financial or moral burden to their parents. And often, parents will extract a promise from the husband to wait until the girl is older to consummate the marriage.

The issue of Yemeni child brides came to the forefront in 2008 with 10-year-old Nujood Ali.

She was pulled out of school and married to a man who beat and raped her within weeks of the ceremony.

To escape, Nujood hailed a taxi -- the first time in her life -- to get across town to the central courthouse where she sat on a bench and demanded to see a judge.

After a well-publicized trial, she was granted a divorce.

The Yemeni parliament tried in February to pass a law, setting the minimum marriage age at 17. But the measure has not reached the president because many parliamentarians argued it violates sharia, or Islamic law, which does not stipulate a minimum age
posted by:
Aschleigh
Los Angeles
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

    Mon, September 14, 2009 - 1:05 PM
    As a member of Amnesty International I read about this among many other abuses of women over the years and to this day I am still appalled and disgusted.
    Yes men and women are very different. They do drive each other to distraction and yes it's true only one set of dreams can be achieved in a relationship. This is the reason a lot of marriages end.
    There are many countries around the world where the life of a woman means nothing. a thirteen year old tells her mother she was raped. Her mother tells the police. the police charge the child with shameful behaviour and have her dragged to a football stadium where she is stoned to death.
    The US has more women in prison than any other nation.
    Here in Australia a police officer who had to return to work after having a baby, because of financial reasons and was forced to make up for time lost while she was breastfeeding....in her car! Why? because no facilities were made available to her. Boy was there a stink about that!
    It was taken all the way to the top.
    A leaf should be taken from the French book of negotiation I think.
    If you have a problem, make it public and make it BIG! On the streets in front of parlament with as much media press as you can muster.
    And don't wait for International Womens Day.
  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

    Mon, September 14, 2009 - 1:48 PM
    While the issues in the Arabian peninsula are deplorable they do not reflect the bulk of the western world. Yes there are disparate income issues amongst men and women but here in the US there are far more opportunities to create a more equitable financial situation. Over the last few decades the issues of differing income levels have been albeit slowly, been addressed and continue to be addressed.

    I do not believe that that is in any way the sole root of abuse of women in the US. It is amazing how many women will just plain keep going back to a man that acts in an abusive manner for no reason aside from "But I love Him" <cue tears>

    I do not think the disparity is solely financial.

    Lacking medical care for sexually active women? No worse than lacking care for people without money. I have had no insurance and no medical care except for emergency injuries for over 7 years. Education is screwed. If you do not have the money your chances of getting beyond cursory college is far reduced and even if you do the debt load can be atrocious.

    A third issue is many women have wholesale rejected feminism as the reason they have been forced to work. The two income household has created in many cases one in which rent, food, clothing and shelter and only be afforded if both parties are employed. Is it just the gender difference. No this is a result of capitalism. You want equal pay. Fight for it get the skills that allow you to be in a strong negotiative position and fight for all the market will bear. Or the solution in which I favor is socialism. I think it is a result of the system and this system is broken. The reality is in a capitalist society women are worth less. Is it right? Not talking right and wrong here, just reality.

    Child marriages in Saudi Arabia have little bearing on the interactions we have here in the States. We have our own issues that have little or nothing to do with the Sharia.

    JSin
    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

      Tue, September 15, 2009 - 1:47 AM
      I prefer to call myself a Communist rather than a socialist.
      Admittedly, in some places that is almost as bad as being a pedophile, which is what we're talking about when we talk about Yemen. In most westernised countries including the US, if a man and a woman who are equally qualified and have been in the workforce for the same amount of time apply for a position in a workplace traditionally occupied by men, then chances are the man will succeed in getting the position and if the woman is employed, her wage will be less.
      Women are getting better deals in the workplace.....slowly. But it is up to all of us to support equality in every endeavour.
      And in the private world when we come across a male who jokes about bashing a woman, the joke should be as popular as one about having sex with a five year old child.
      • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

        Tue, September 15, 2009 - 2:14 PM
        Thanks Gerard. I do see this as a human rights issues, I'm glad you brought that up.

        I see the fate of women in yemen as connected to the fate of american women. I see rights of humans in yemem as connected to the rights of human everywhere. Women's rights are human rights. And all of it has an impact on relationships.
  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

    Wed, September 16, 2009 - 7:51 AM
    As long as we maintain patriarchal based beliefs, no.
    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

      Thu, September 17, 2009 - 3:20 PM

      I do not believe that that is in any way the sole root of abuse of women in the US. It is amazing how many women will just plain keep going back to a man that acts in an abusive manner for no reason aside from "But I love Him"

      I actually agree with this Jsin.

      And yes it has to do with patriarchal beliefs. Patriachy is inherently uneqaul isn't it?
      • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

        Thu, September 17, 2009 - 5:49 PM
        There are myriad studies about why women go back if you bother to look... and it ain't "Because I love him."
        • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

          Fri, September 18, 2009 - 3:51 AM
          Yeah I agree, there definitely are a myriad of reasons. The one that always just kills me is the "Because I love Him" one. This one does seem to be far more tied to emotional abuse and seems to be connected to the "If I were just better" rationality. It is surprising how often that statement is made.

          The reason women or men go back to abusive and negative relationships is something i will never understand. It may be because I have no problem with cutting my losses and moving on.

          JSin
          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

            Fri, September 18, 2009 - 10:16 AM
            There is a real possibility that men who are abusive are ( unconsciosuly) looking for women who have low self-esteem or come from situations where violence was the norm, so that when the violence starts it is seen as normal basically. And vice verse too, women who have the norm of violence look for men to fill that in their lives.
            One can love an abusive man, I still love my grand father who was abusive to his wife, my grandma. I wish she had left him but she was in no position to leave, self-esteem wise, financially, culturally ( irish catholic) etc.. Buty she had my mom and who had me and I am in no position to stay with a man who is even verbally abusive, so things change generationally . We get wealthier as generations progess too, not coinsidently.

            I love that law of attraction stuff: we attract into our lives what we put out vibrationally. Not to be used to blame anyone for what they have or don't have, this is largely unconscious for everyone. My grandma didn't know she could have any better or that in fact she deserved better, she thought she had to be married and have kids. Imagine how restricting that is .
            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

              Fri, September 18, 2009 - 1:49 PM
              My wife came from an abusive family situation. Her father was a drunken bastard of a man who beat his wife and children on a regular basis. She went from there into a marriage where her husband beat her and at one point almost killed her. Her doctor told her that she was to divorce as he would not be signing her death certificate. Ten years later, she met me. I don't hit women. In actual fact I've never hit anything intentionally, only in defense and only when he was bigger than me.

              Now reason!
              Her father was a stretcher bearer in Asia during the second world war. He'd play cards with his mates at night and then go pick up the bits of them of the field of battle the next day. Did that for four years and was expected to go back into society without a by your leave. He had PTSD We know that now.
              Her first husband is dying now of an aggressive cancer originating in a pesticide he used as a young married man while working as a green-keeper. He was always more aggressive when he'd arrive home from work.
              There is always a reason and most women in abusive relationships know this because "He wasn't always like this."
              What they fail to see most of the time is that they aren't in the position to fix what is wrong with the man they love. They love Jeckle, it's the Hyde person they don't like.
              And sometimes, it's just because there is nowhere else for them to go.
              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                Sat, September 19, 2009 - 8:20 AM
                Looks like I may have a chance to post. Not sure if others are having problems staying on tribe or not but I've not been able to stay on once I've move away from my home page. Are some people being filtered out or is this an across the board problem for all?
                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                  Sat, September 19, 2009 - 4:16 PM
                  Yeh, it's an across the board thing.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                    Sun, September 20, 2009 - 10:21 AM
                    interestingly, i haven't had any problems at all lately. i wonder if it's because i moved my location, so i'm on a different server.. but it's been fine, every time. weird.
                    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                      Sun, September 20, 2009 - 11:49 AM
                      Trying different servers works sometimes, but alas, I don't want to hijack aschleighs thread. It is an important question
                      • .
                        .
                        offline 2

                        Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                        Sun, September 20, 2009 - 2:25 PM
                        "I don't want to hijack aschleighs thread. It is an important question"

                        Xris,I appreciate this consideration which is hard to find often since it actually depends on people being considerate and non-reactionary.
                        • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                          Sun, September 20, 2009 - 2:35 PM
                          yes, thanks Kris. I do find that considerate.
                          Have you seen what happened when I asked this question on Ask a sexy women anything?

                          I am finding ( maybe because I am looking ) that men are really being supportive of looking at these inequalities. What becomes apparent for me is that no body is really served by huge discrepancies in a relationship. Men suffer from this too. What did the Yemeni girl's husband really get out of it? He must feel awful too. To see her die and their unborn child.
                          • .
                            .
                            offline 2

                            Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                            Sun, September 20, 2009 - 4:36 PM
                            ironic how you go to the woman side of the fence and got nothing but nastiness..

                            reminds me of women being worse to other women than men, in the workplace.
                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                              Mon, September 21, 2009 - 12:55 PM
                              nothing but nastiness? i think it's worth considering the difference between honesty and nastiness. what evolved in that thread was not petty bitchiness... it was a tangent about clarity and consistency of thought, specifically because ashleigh has represented herself in different ways over the years that don't always add up. were some of us very direct? yes. is that nastiness? not in my book, in fact, i think that sometimes, telling someone the truth that no one else will say to them is a gift.

                              as far as workplace behavior, i have worked in companies that were entirely women, and companies that were mostly men, and in my personal experience, while the behaviors may have been different, there isn't really a gender correlation between intelligence and the ability to be cooperative. as an executive recruiter for many years, i do notice that successful senior executive business women can be much more powerful and direct than men of similar backgrounds, though i'm not sure my experience would be statistically significant. but without a doubt, being a professional woman requires a thicker skin and more determination and resiliency than men need.

                              i've been around some bitchy petty women and some sexist asshole guys, and some delightful folks to work with of both genders.
                          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                            Mon, September 21, 2009 - 1:01 PM
                            ashleigh, i'm sure you know that the feminist movement originated with women, so i'm not sure why you think that men are more supportive of looking at inequalities than the women who have the most to gain. i think you may be misinterpreting the different perspectives regarding your original post, which was referring to an article that was primarily about child rights.
                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                              Mon, September 21, 2009 - 4:16 PM
                              "being a professional woman requires a thicker skin and more determination and resiliency than men need". I'm saying that men ( who know) have a lot to gain from equality, from equal relationships.

                              I don't believe that across the board. Some jobs require more determination and resiliency of all of us. I don't think it takes more from a women than a man to be a therapist for instance, I think it may be easier for women in healing/ empathetic professions.
                              That's a good example of the new kind of feminist I am : I don't think men are the problem always. Men suffer too and we all benifit from eqaulity. Many men are supportive and many women are supportive of looking at ineqaulities in society, some women are not supportive and some men are not supportive.

                              I represent myself as many things: student, trainee, coach, women, human, etc... because I am many things. I am not responsible for your confusion.
                              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                Mon, September 21, 2009 - 7:39 PM
                                that could be true about therapists. i've interviewed thousands of business women, but i don't have experience with placing therapists or healing practitioners, so haven't heard much about their experience with sexism in their profession. but the executive women i know have a lot of stories to tell about needing to be tougher and thicker skinned to survive and succeed.

                                and i don't know what new kind of feminist you are. i guess i'd have to be the old kind of feminist, since i'm old and all ;^) and i think i'm pretty much on the record that sexist generalizations don't work in my experience. anyone who thinks "men are the problem always" isn't a feminist, they're a fool.

                                and i got a chuckle out of a person with no name or photos saying "i call it like i see it" and the person with his bare ass as a profile pic calling straight talk kind of rough. truly, lol, you guys are kinda cute.
                                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                  Tue, September 22, 2009 - 7:06 AM
                                  Wonders why Leslie thinks argumentum ad hominem is "straight talk."
                                  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                    Tue, September 22, 2009 - 9:55 AM
                                    you are clearly misunderstanding the conversation, which is fine, since you weren't actually part of it. i'm not sure why ashleigh even brought it up here.
                                    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                      Tue, September 22, 2009 - 11:24 AM
                                      Being an executive seems likes it's hard in general. The male executives seem mean to each other. That's sounds like corporate culture. I don't know why men or women would want to work in it. It takes a tough skin to work in the wrong profession for people. I work in very feminine places, my school is fairly feminine ( like 80% women students) , my profession is feminine. The men around me tend to be supportive. So that's my experience and I worked for it. I worked in places where the men and women were not supportive and got myself out of there.

                                      Leslie, you make a lot of " you" statements. " "You are clearly misunderstanding the conversation.". Is it possible that Xris is understanding the conversation from his perspective but not yours? Is it possible that there is more than your perspective to understand from? And that each one is valid but not more valid than another.
                                      I think it helps in dialogue to talk about ourselves, from an " I" perspective. Then people don't feel blamed or get reactive so quickly. And a discussion can go both ways , as in a dialogue.
                                      • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                        Tue, September 22, 2009 - 7:21 PM
                                        ashleigh, xcris said he believed the other thread was argumentum ad hominem, and it was not, at least not from my side. your assertions were not being discounted with a personal argument about you... you were being asked to clarify why you make what appear to be inconsistent statements. that's why i said he misunderstood.

                                        and i make 'you' statements when i'm talking about other people. i'm happy to make 'i' statements when i'm talking about myself, but not as a communication trick. i learned all the "i feel xx when you xx and as a result i xxx" formulas back when you were a toddler and assertiveness training was all the rage. it has its place, but this is not an encounter group or therapy session.

                                        and in my opinion, there are indeed levels of validity of opinions. obviously, each of us understands from our personal perspective. for me, though, in the cyberworld, people who are participating anonymously do not get the same credibility or assumption of validity that those who present themselves more openly will get. i apologize to those who want it to be different, but it just can't be. anonymity costs credibility. so really, for me to hold back on saying something lest it might offend someone who only came to tribe to hook up for sex, well, no, thanks, that isn't going to happen. that loops back to conversations about people who use alts and anonymous profiles not being on the same playing field. hence accusations of passive aggressive behavior from someone with no name or photos don't count for much in my book either. armchair psychology from alts is the realm of the burning man tribe.

                                        and i can't say that i would agree that "male executives seem mean to each other" -- corporate business is competitive, but most senior executives i have encountered are kind, understanding and honest, and not mean in the least. tough, yes, or they don't succeed. definitely thick-skinned. but sure, there are some asses in there, too. but those are not necessarily the successful ones.

                                        in my experience with executives (having them as clients and as candidates, not in day-to-day work situations), the more senior they are, the nicer they become, perhaps because they're less concerned with competing and become more secure in themselves. of course, there are many kinds of corporate cultures, and some are notorious for encouraging and rewarding confrontational and downright nasty behavior that you and i wouldn't put up with for a minute. and some are the opposite. i was told that, at least back in the day, bechtel would fire an executive who cursed or yelled inappropriately.

                                        i work with corporate culture, but not in it. it is a world that a lot of people find challenging and rewarding. the reasons people choose that path are myriad, but financial security and the chance to be part of a big venture are big draws. it's not for me either.
                          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                            Mon, September 21, 2009 - 7:04 PM
                            Kinda of rough over at ask a sexy woman, maybe a little too much ad argumentum.
                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                              Tue, September 22, 2009 - 10:01 PM
                              No, it's a history of misrepresentation, vagueness and ambiguity on Aschleigh;s part paired with her obviously false knowledge of anything but her own experience. That's not mean, that's the blatant observation those of us who have interacted with her for a long time have made. Given the history, Leslie is being gracious. The truth is, Aschleigh seems to me, to dislike women and worship maleness despite her protestations.

                              As long as you are male and compliment her, she's butter. If you point out any truth that she doesn't want to see, the psychobabble ensues. Leslie is one of the most legit and fair posters you will ever find on this tribe. Asch just wants to blow you.
                              • .
                                .
                                offline 2

                                Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                Tue, September 22, 2009 - 10:27 PM
                                <<The truth is...>>

                                ..and this from someone who describes themselves as "accident prone, verbose, a very good drunk..witchy, silly, sarcastic.."

                                i think it is clear who's who in terms of agression.
                                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                  Tue, September 22, 2009 - 11:26 PM
                                  I never claimed to be a delicate flower. I'm not sure how my description has anything to do with anything, but go ahead and have at it. ... and was I talking about aggression? Oh wait! I get it, you're taking descriptors I wrote about myself years ago out of context to make a point that those descriptors have nothing to do with... right? Actually I have no idea what your point is but it's clear I have somehow offended your sensibilities.

                                  You don't have to like my opinion or my delivery and it really concerns me none. This is just how I feel about the situation and I bet I have a lot more to work from than you do regarding the credibility of the aforementioned. I didn't post this for your benefit, Aschleigh knows what I think. Sometimes truth is harsh but nonetheless true. I am not one to substitute niceties and enable people in lieu of evidence and reality based on observation. It takes only a critical eye to delve a bit and see the emerging patterns of male ego-stroking and worship, hardly a hallmark of feminism. Walk it like you talk it, is what I believe and I don't suffer willful ignorance or hypocrisy. You can if you like and put it to it's purpose in your psyche, but I will feel free to comment as I wish.

                                  All the best,
                                  -Q
                                  • .
                                    .
                                    offline 2

                                    Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                    Wed, September 23, 2009 - 12:26 AM
                                    oh, so you think your description needs to be updated?
                                    ...seems to fit the bill just fine.

                                    For me, the interesting question to ask yourself is: why sugar coat your aggression with notions of honesty, objective truth.. blah blah blah..? why not take courage and say point blank how you feel? because it seems to me, that you don't want to express thought; rather, you want to express feelings but seem to be convoluting them with distractions of idealisms.

                                    ..and if for some reason you where actually interested in idealisms, well being emotional about it is not really recomended since it tends to cloud your perception... but perhaps this too sobering a notion for you to fathom.

                                    (btw, you give yourself too much credit to think your agression offends me; you see, I graduated from Jr. high school a long time ago.. that just doesn't do it for me anymore--glad to say)
                                    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                      Wed, September 23, 2009 - 8:35 AM
                                      for me, the interesting question is why an anonymous someone who has a profile with no name, a few off-the-internet pictures of computer-generated mandalas, and no actual profile information, would say someone else lacks courage. i think it could fairly be said that is true of you, at least in this context.

                                      and making accusations that other people are angry, emotional or passive aggressive loses credibility when you use sarcasm, belittling and insults in your response.

                                      you fail to give us the respect or candor to actually show who you are here. again, someone with a bag over their head simply cannot expect to gain the trust of the rest of the real people in the room.

                                      • .
                                        .
                                        offline 2

                                        Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                        Wed, September 23, 2009 - 9:13 AM
                                        this same Ol' Same Ol' is just is too funny for me.

                                        You are free to delude yourself at your hearts content..
                                        ..just one liltle thing:

                                        "few off-the-internet pictures of computer-generated mandalas"... not so.

                                        I made those.
                                        • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                          Wed, September 23, 2009 - 9:41 AM
                                          ah, my apologies, then. please delete the "off-the-internet" part of my comment. the rest still stands.

                                          your name is alex, right?
                                          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                            Wed, September 23, 2009 - 10:49 AM
                                            leslie stated:

                                            >"your name is alex, right?"<
                                            Of course it is. I knew that work looked familiar. Given no evidence that he actually created them though I would have to question the originality of the work. Several of them I have seen on a number of profiles. Given white box boy has no reference or identity it is fair to deduce that in fact those are not original work. Given the link is to a user name Alex Yana. The Evaluation seems correct. What's the matter alex? Not thrilled to be back to troll flame and generally disrupt conversation. Seems unlike quel and leslie you have something to hide.

                                            Rich? Didn't alex get booted before for exactly this behavior? If not here then likely in EH.

                                            JSin
                                            • .
                                              .
                                              offline 2

                                              Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                              Wed, September 23, 2009 - 11:19 AM
                                              JSin, you say "Several of them I have seen on a number of profiles."

                                              If true, that would rock! I'd be glad that people are liking them so much as to share them around.

                                              I'd like to know who is liking my work like that..would you mind sharing that info with me? thanks..

                                              (JSin, don't you belong to Troll Vs Troll tribe?)
                                              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                Wed, September 23, 2009 - 12:45 PM
                                                alex wrote:
                                                >"(JSin, don't you belong to Troll Vs Troll tribe?) "<

                                                My tribe list is public. Sorry no troll vs troll tribe there... gonna have to pick the game up if you want to establish credibility. As it stands ya gots none as they say.

                                                JSin
                                                • .
                                                  .
                                                  offline 2

                                                  Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                  Wed, September 23, 2009 - 1:40 PM
                                                  No apology needed, JSin, but I'll take it for a rainy day ;-)

                                                  My memory is rather faint on that count (maybe i was thinking of Jsaint or something)..that's why I ask first.. something we don't seem to bother with anymore, do we? I mean why ask, when an insult will get us to the effect we aim for much easier and faster.
                                                  Now if you excuse me, I'd like to address the wider audience.

                                                  To the riff-raff, yes YOU:

                                                  We may pretend we care for notions of Idealisms and/or whatever.. but do we really care? Let's face it, you know you could care less for that. Here is the thing: I think you want to express emotions; but you go about it so indirectly, clumpsy really.. it's almost embarrasing.. so why bother with innuendos? just come out and state it.. just say how you feel.. come on.. try it on for size.. It will make you feel better.. if not, you can always go back to hide behind these abstractions you seem to spout out.

                                                  just a thought..
                                                  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                    Wed, September 23, 2009 - 3:18 PM
                                                    alex wrote:
                                                    >"To the riff-raff, yes YOU: "<

                                                    Hmm... I seem to be misunderstanding what you are referring to I thought you were an advocate for clarity honesty and directness after all you stated:

                                                    >"For me, the interesting question to ask yourself is: why sugar coat your aggression with notions of honesty, objective truth.. blah blah blah..? why not take courage and say point blank how you feel? because it seems to me, that you don't want to express thought; rather, you want to express feelings but seem to be convoluting them with distractions of idealisms."<

                                                    You seem to dwell in the oblique and uninspired. Not surprising given the nature of your artwork.

                                                    JSin
                                          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                            Wed, September 23, 2009 - 10:58 AM
                                            I do sometimes dislike how women make things personal when they are not meant to be, like the original post, that was about women and children's right and the question of Do we live in such a different society? Which as a women who cares about women and children and men , felt like a totally legititimate question to ask. I also dislike it when men do that, take it personally . I didn't see any man here ask anything about my qualifications , or what I do for a living, before discussing the topic at hand, although lots of women did not either. I post things and they devolve into personal attacks. I'm not doing the attacking perhaps other than to say fifi ,the name( maybe a screen name or alt, I don't know) sounds like a little yappy dog.

                                            I know Alex, from tribe. His pics are in his profile last I looked, he makes beautiful mandalas and he has kids, he's a real person.
                                            I do admire some men a lot, I admire some women a lot too. I think it has to do with differentiation. I grew up with a bunch of purposeless bickering , I didn't like it then. I think there is a way to support each other. I probably am ambiguous or vague, or that's how it seems. I would encourage Quel Que to go to grad school in psychology and see what kind of ambiguity and vagueness that kicks up in her life. It's part of the process of being human as far as I can tell. It's like not being an expert ( yet) or being in the middle of any long term project. I could be sure of things like George Bush ( IE wrong) or I could be in the process of sifting through it all. I am also a lIbra so I tend to see all sides. Does anyone have it all figured out at 32? Even if they do, I don't. I am more and more ok with that everyday , thankfully.
                                            How is it helpful to tell anyone " there opinions of men are just because they want to blow them" or however you worded it? What was that meant to accomplish? Did it work?
                                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                              Wed, September 23, 2009 - 11:09 AM
                                              I define myself as a feminist, partly to honor my mother ( who has told me 10,000 times how she started the first chapter of NOW in her town in michigan) also to align myself with women like Hillary Clinton and Indira Ghandi and millions like them. But wow some women make it hard . I think I can worship masculinity and femininity as expressions of the divine and still be a feminist. But maybe I will have to find another word for it. A person who cares about equal right for women and men and children yet doesn't need to put down men in the process. ( and does the work of supporting people in their fullness as a profession) . I think I'll stick with the word feminist. Feminism also gets to change with me, with women and men who change it to better suit us.
                                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                              Wed, September 23, 2009 - 12:56 PM
                                              Ashley wrote:
                                              >"like the original post, that was about women and children's right and the question of Do we live in such a different society? Which as a women who cares about women and children and men , felt like a totally legititimate question to ask."<

                                              Here is the problem and it was addressed in ASW. You seem to be missing a couple logic circuits. The quote has almost nothing to do with the query. Yes absolutely it is wrong to sell kids off to someone for marriage and or sexual exploitative acts. I think most people would agree. BUT this has little to nothing to do with the issues of equity <I intentionally have not used the word equality because I believe that the concept of equality amongst things that are different is a flawed premise, this is another argument in and of itself> The argument at that point become reductio ad absurdum. I could just as easily argue that women rights have been solved since the 80's when Maggie Thatcher became PM of great Britain... or even more so when Queen Elizabeth I ran the finest army and Navy the world to that point had ever seen. Both arguments would be subject to the same flawed reasoning your OP had.

                                              So to your point. Children of the female persuasion are not women, this is another culture, the behavior is not indicative of the cultural underpinnings of the vast majority of western industrialized non theological countries.

                                              JSin

                                              JSin
                                              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                Wed, September 23, 2009 - 1:22 PM
                                                Western Industrialised.
                                                No longer exists.
                                                India and China are no longer developing nations industrially. The internet has connected us across the globe allowing conversation to envelop all peoples with technology. We influence each other. Non theological is not necessarily a good thing. Religions, no matter how they are perceived or enforced provide rules by which we may more easily co-habit in large groups. There are as many Islamic societies that provide a positive growth environment as there are Christian societies that create a sense of fear and hopelessness. i.e. apparently only 39% of the US believes in evolution and about twenty percent believe that Darwin was Satan.
                                                More often than not our image of a society is based on the surface cream that is provided by the media. I had a friend in the eighties when I drove cabs in Sydney. He was Iranian and he was saving up to bring his mum to Australia. I saw him being interviewed two years ago as a welfare worker who worked with young Islamic men helping them through the trials of' "The angry young man " stage of life.
                                                We can no longer judge on ANY other premise than single individual acts. We are already one community. we just haven't noticed that yet.
                                                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                  Wed, September 23, 2009 - 2:12 PM
                                                  Ahh you missed a bit... check your ps and Qs when you snip
                                                  The original quote was:
                                                  >"western industrialized non theological countries."<

                                                  If you are going to attempt to hit me with that stick learn to read.

                                                  Even more to the point you you cite theocracies as being more open. Are you saying the Shria is equitable to women within a social context... really...

                                                  On balance it seems that the sharia is as guilty as the bible in repressing women and theological social systems are intrinsically patriarchal. \

                                                  Just FYI it is valuable to cite references when citing stats:
                                                  >"i.e. apparently only 39% of the US believes in evolution "<
                                                  here is likely where you got it....
                                                  www.gallup.com/poll/11454...lution.aspx
                                                  scroll down will you and see:
                                                  >"There is a strong relationship between education and belief in Darwin's theory, as might be expected, ranging from 21% of those with high-school educations or less to 74% of those with postgraduate degrees."<

                                                  So in essence religious uneducated individuals don't believe in Darwin's theories. I wonder how religious the folks are that think Darwin is an imaginary purveyor of evil.

                                                  Your arguments really are pretty flat on face. I do not in any way believe we are one community and honestly you have shown no evidence or realistic argument <I don't even require a rational one> that we are acting in concert within the world community. It seems to me the vast majority of nations are engaged in conflict and disagreement on many basic principles not the least of which are
                                                  When is a female child a woman?
                                                  Is rape an acceptable practice?
                                                  Is slavery acceptable?
                                                  Is Murder acceptable wether conducted by individuals or the state?
                                                  Is Torture acceptable?
                                                  Are women chattel?
                                                  Who is the one true lord?

                                                  There are far more questions but you can see very far from a cohesive community by any measure.

                                                  JSin
                                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                              Wed, September 23, 2009 - 10:23 PM
                                              Just callin' it like I see it. I'm sure Freud would agree. So yes, I accomplished what I set out to do... say something I believe. Why assume an ulterior motive? For the record, I cannot respect a charlatan. I would venture to guess you would rather be a sophist, but you'd have to understand logic. I am only attacking if the truth is considered such.

                                              BTW, I'm pretty sure Fifi is not in this tribe.
                                          • .
                                            .
                                            offline 2

                                            Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                            Wed, September 23, 2009 - 11:08 AM
                                            "the rest still stands."

                                            it may stand on illusions, but I'm not exactly feeling responsible to your loss of contact with reality. sorry
                                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                              Wed, September 23, 2009 - 2:37 PM
                                              i would like to apologize to the members of this tribe for rising to the bait of alex's posts. i've actually violated my own guideline not to engage in conversations with anonymous alts, and now that i realize i'm talking to someone who's been booted from other tribes because of similar stuff, i could kick myself for participating in the first place.

                                              sorry about that.
                                              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                Wed, September 23, 2009 - 3:21 PM
                                                no worries leslie. The posting history tells the story. While i had suspected it was alex I was uncertain till you brought it to my attention and checked the cite on the bottom of the pic page. As it stands he is now a known quantity and I very sincerely doubt his sub standard efforts will glean an outcome more favorable than history has demonstrated.

                                                Enjoy darlin, no harm no foul.
                                                As for me I am unrepentant.

                                                JSin
                                                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                  Wed, September 23, 2009 - 4:49 PM
                                                  Humans are connected well beyond what most americans perceive. That's what the world is screaming about whether it's palestians or columbians or our fellow americans. What the US does effects other countries vastly and vice versa.
                                                  "It seems to me the vast majority of nations are engaged in conflict and disagreement on many basic principles not the least of which are
                                                  When is a female child a woman?
                                                  Is rape an acceptable practice?
                                                  Is slavery acceptable?
                                                  Is Murder acceptable wether conducted by individuals or the state?
                                                  Is Torture acceptable?
                                                  Are women chattel?
                                                  Who is the one true lord? "
                                                  Americans engage in these questions . State by state it is different sexual consent wise, 14-18 I think is the range. I hope no one accepts rape but it certainly happens ( to men too) Slavery, americans use slaves, sex slaves in Thialand for instanse, Is Torture acceptable? Are you kidding, have you heard of Eric Holder or the Justice Department, We as americans ( some of us) are debating that right now.
                                                  Perhaps you were saying Jsin that these are questions the world ( including america) are confronting right now, in that case I agree.
                                                  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                    Wed, September 23, 2009 - 6:20 PM
                                                    Historically I think the questions you just asked Aschleigh are largely answered by men. I think that I'll refer back to my previous post regarding patriarchy; that is how do we transcend something that has been systemic for thousands of years? Education is one way, however not nearly able to dovetail deep enough into various aggregates that make up "society."
                                                    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                      Thu, September 24, 2009 - 5:39 AM
                                                      Xris wrote:
                                                      >"I think that I'll refer back to my previous post regarding patriarchy; that is how do we transcend something that has been systemic for thousands of years?"<

                                                      The patriarchy is a cop out. It has nothing to do with the actions. Women have been in power with little change. can anyone say Maggie Thatcher and her war of aggression against Argentina because it was thought they might, oh no, become a socialist nation and cut off the major source of UK oil. Women are just as corrupt and power hungry as men. I think it is human nature not the nature of men.

                                                      JSin
                                                      • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                        Thu, September 24, 2009 - 7:15 AM
                                                        Yes Jsin women have been in power and did not change the game plan for the most part or if they tried we never heard about it. Btw. Wonder what ever became of ERA? I think it's hard to buck the system.
                                                        • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                          Thu, September 24, 2009 - 10:25 AM
                                                          Actually I do know what happened with ERA. It was a poorly crafted piece of legislation that would not have accomplished it's goal. While it was laudable It went about it the wrong way. Two issues in particular are significant:
                                                          1. It would have continues to shift power to the federal govt away from the states.

                                                          2. There are certain protections that women need above men. This would have abolished all of those such as Maternity leave would have been Illegal. Programs such a maternity care for women also illegal.

                                                          Remember before you say it would not happen the amendment stated:
                                                          >"Men and women shall have equal rights throughout the United States and every place subject to its jurisdiction.

                                                          Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."<

                                                          While on face it appears to protect women in fact all programs directed solely or primarily toward women would be subject to elimination as a violation of this amendment.

                                                          JSin
                                                          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                            Thu, September 24, 2009 - 11:37 AM
                                                            Patriarchy has a lot to do with actions. Like making more money just because a person is a man. If someone can't see the link between Patriarchy and inequality between men and women, I don't know if there is much I could say to help them see it.
                                                            Patriarchy is universal at this point, that's what American women have in common with Yemen women, we live in systems ruled by men. If you know of matriarchal societies now , please speak up.
                                                            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                              Thu, September 24, 2009 - 1:24 PM
                                                              I don't know of any matriarchal societies that currently exist.

                                                              As far as ERA and states rights, I'm not clear about what rights would be infringed on. Usually states, especially in more religious areas use their power to discriminate against people they rather not see have any power. Also not sure it would remove maternity leave across the board. Do men get leave now to take care of children? I don't really know since I have no children. Seems like it would be fair.
                                                              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                                Thu, September 24, 2009 - 5:04 PM
                                                                Read carefully:
                                                                >">"Men and women shall have equal rights throughout the United States and every place subject to its jurisdiction. "<

                                                                This means without question that absolutly no gender group can receive anything but equal treatment. Any programs funded by the government would have to be for both genders. So for example women who have worked in the home their whole life could not receive special training to rejoin the job market. Ant funding for programs aimed at women's health would be unconstitutional. While you say unlikely, that is not my experience. All it would take is one challenge taken to the supreme court to overturn a huge number of programs nationwide that are designed to protect women.

                                                                Men's leave is covered under the family leave act. On a state to state basis extra rights are granted to women specifically for example California and Washington State. These additional protections would be deemed unconstitutional. The pregnancy discrimination act likely would also be challenged.

                                                                As to states rights if you look to the 10 amendment\
                                                                >"Amendment 10: Powers not delegated to the United States or denied to states are reserved to the states or to the people."<

                                                                This is why the ERA had to be done as an amendment. It violates state's rights. I am of a firm belief that we have already ceded broad powers to the feds including oversight on illegal drugs <another constitutional violation>. A line in the sand should be drawn no matter how beneficial on face the legislation may appear. No more power to the federal government.

                                                                Should a state opt to grant additional rights to a woman or begin programs that are designed to aid women they could be challenged on the federal level for their constitutionality.

                                                                Another interesting repercussion is because the concept as it applies to civil rights, separate but equal, was deemed unconstitutional. All gender specific restroom facilities would have to be abolished.

                                                                As I said it was very poorly thought out legislation and the reforms should be dealt with on the state level. Not by amending the constitution.

                                                                JSin
                                                              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                                Thu, September 24, 2009 - 5:14 PM
                                                                Read carefully:
                                                                >">"Men and women shall have equal rights throughout the United States and every place subject to its jurisdiction. "<

                                                                This means without question that absolutly no gender group can receive anything but equal treatment. Any programs funded by the government would have to be for both genders. So for example women who have worked in the home their whole life could not receive special training to rejoin the job market. Ant funding for programs aimed at women's health would be unconstitutional. While you say unlikely, that is not my experience. All it would take is one challenge taken to the supreme court to overturn a huge number of programs nationwide that are designed to protect women.

                                                                Men's leave is covered under the family leave act. On a state to state basis extra rights are granted to women specifically for example California and Washington State. These additional protections would be deemed unconstitutional. The pregnancy discrimination act likely would also be challenged.

                                                                As to states rights if you look to the 10 amendment\
                                                                >"Amendment 10: Powers not delegated to the United States or denied to states are reserved to the states or to the people."<

                                                                This is why the ERA had to be done as an amendment. It violates state's rights. I am of a firm belief that we have already ceded broad powers to the feds including oversight on illegal drugs <another constitutional violation>. A line in the sand should be drawn no matter how beneficial on face the legislation may appear. No more power to the federal government.

                                                                Should a state opt to grant additional rights to a woman or begin programs that are designed to aid women they could be challenged on the federal level for their constitutionality.

                                                                Another interesting repercussion is because the concept as it applies to civil rights, separate but equal, was deemed unconstitutional. All gender specific restroom facilities would have to be abolished.

                                                                As I said it was very poorly thought out legislation and the reforms should be dealt with on the state level. Not by amending the constitution.

                                                                JSin
                                                  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                                                    Thu, September 24, 2009 - 5:34 AM
                                                    Here is the point ashleigh. every single one of the items I listed at least to some degree yes here in the states are debatable. Here in the US, in Canada and in most industrialized nations things like rape, murder, women as chattel, torture have been addressed legally. You ask about sex slaves in Thialand. you don't have to go tht far for it but it is punishable here through significant jail time including pandering. Torture... well we accepted the geneva convention. It just happens some POS that happened to run this country abused what is considered a basic tenant of "just war" theory. Like most historical war criminals I believe he should be hung from the neck until dead. Which brings us to murder, state sponsored or otherwise. Again we are culpable. Rape yep this great nation turns a blind eye to that as well. But here is the point.

                                                    you ready???

                                                    They have very little to do with the struggle of women for equitable treatment in the western world. They are a wholly different issue same as the plight of child brides in Yemen has very little to do with feminism in amerikkka. There also is very little agreement on any of the crime I listed. rape for instance. Here in the US an amn can be jailed for years on the say so of a woman <yes actual case she want's immunity to testify that she lied which would release an innocent man>. Under sharia if she does not have 4 adult male islamic witnesses she is assumed to have committed adultery and can be stoned to death <actual case>.

                                                    These are not universal principles. Cultural differences exist and the argument of a greater equality is ill served by using an example of another culture to further some universal point. There is no universality. Yes it is horrible that child brides are sold in Yemen. It had dick to do with male female relations here.

                                                    JSin
  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

    Fri, September 25, 2009 - 10:38 AM
    Note this thread was DELETED in ASW by Ashleigh. Apparently if a conversation does not continue to validate her or brings into question her non existent credentials she will delete it.

    While many may think it is no big deal, it is indicative of a pattern of behavior.

    JSin
    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

      Sat, September 26, 2009 - 5:54 PM
      @JSin... yup - that's why I generally don't follow or post threads begun by her. I check on them once in awhile now to make sure there aren't any more ugly surprises waiting for me, but tire quickly of... how did you put it? Her pattern of behavior? I think you hit it on the head and I wholeheartedly agree..
      • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

        Sun, October 11, 2009 - 4:04 AM
        It's late... I don't ever to want to be deliberately mean or pessimistic. But neither do I pander to anyone's sensitive ego or self-serving illusions on this subject.

        I refer you to an excellent new book that was the basis for the lead article in the NY Times magazine several wks ago:

        "Half the Sky- Turning Oppression into Opportunity For Women Worldwide"- by Nicholas Kristiof & Sheryl WuDunn.

        Yup, by now it's been on "Oprah", & is climbing the bestseller list. I think it'll end up being one of the seminal books of our era... it's that important on a mass level. .

        And two I always recommend on the subject of gender equity & finding ways to create equal partnerships:
        "The Chalice & the Blade"
        "The Partnership Way"- both by Riane Eilsner.

        A few points:

        "Equal" is not automatically equivalent to "the same". The ERA had it's flaws, but they were small compared to the setbacks encountered by it's defeat. I don't give a damn about state's rights here, anymore than I do regarding any other civil rights & anything that makes discrimination harder. Women's experience historically, & even today is clearly different than men's, & most ridiculous court challenges could have been defeated. That would have been nothing compared to time spent in courts because we don't have the teeth of a federal ERA type amendment on the books.

        We're hardly done w/ the work of feminism in this country, simply because we've fought & succeeded in changing things enormously for the better... so much so it's taken for granted. Women are still the recipients of way too much violence & discrimination. We still make 1/4 to 1/3 less than men for comparable work. But yeah... we've come a long way, w/ more to come. I don't make this shit up. Just go look up UN & crime stats.
        Our gains here... many of them are so recent. I never take them for granted. I know too much about history.
        And I'm so sick of hearing about another man who killed his ex-wife, & sometimes the kids. Or comforting a friend who's been assaulted, or threateningly stalked. I'm not particularly fearful, yet I'm always looking over my shoulder when I walk in a parking lot at night, checking the backseat before I get in the car, in a way men usually don't have to. And when they do, it's other men they're watching out for. That gives the few violent women a strong advantage... but the operative word is few. .
        Sexism is evil. It poisons relationships. And so far... I've only been mostly talking about this country...

        Feminism is global. Not only do many of us travel, & but we have friends & family in other countries, & are citizens of a wide world. Global warming affects us, & so does mass rape & slavery in the Sudan. Poverty, lack of easily available birth control, AIDS... it all crosses the globe in it's very real effects... & that's not even delving into basic human compassion. The same goes for hearing about & seeing effective solutions, more gender equity, & healing- Inspiration, hope, & good ideas to learn from.

        FINALLY, FINALLY!!! mainstream journalists are beginning to get a clue about the fact that so-called "soft" woman's issues are hardcore HUMAN issues. They're beginning to understand that in cultures where men are highly dominant, where women & girls are denied education & oppressed, that more loose-canon militarism is almost a given.

        Financial institutions & aid orgs., even some govt.s, now have years of clear stats showing that when aid $ gets into the hands of women, it usually goes proportionately way more towards food, housing & education, than it does when in the hands of me. Unfortunately many men spend a good proportion of earned or given $ on, alcohol cigarettes, prostitutes, or showing off in other ways.
        Look at charitable sites- they are starting to concentrate their focus & microloans on women. This DOES also benefit men & boys... even tho' yes, power shifts some. That's a good thing. It's hard to beat a woman who is feeding the whole extended family w/ her micro-business. And she is a lot more likely to send her daughter to school, too, feed her more equally, & keep her out of a child marriage. That daughter will usually have fewer, & healthier children. Her sons are safer, too, & have a chance at growing up w/ more respect for women, & w/ less violence in the home.

        This IS the next world-wide revolution... the best hope we have for survival.

        This is NOT male bashing. I only wish I were exaggerating. There are plenty of good men around... & we need MORE. Even in this country... For very poor guy I know who got screwed in his divorce settlement, there are a dozen who are paying way less than they should be to help their own kids, &/or compensate a women who worked hard for little more than room & board at home for years, so she can get on her feet. .
        Too much power corrupts many men on a mass level. Even a poor man can go home, humiliate & beat his wife, neglect his kids, rape his children... Or simply spend the family's food budget in a bar. Especially if he knows he will likely get away w/ it, & the victims will likely be shamed & blamed. After all, they have no power, little to no $ & property of their own, & in some cultures, are literally almost invisible by custom & even law.

        Any backlash, denial energy about these issues would be better spent on support of positive change. We're individuals, but we live in cultural & legal contexts. "
        • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

          Sun, October 11, 2009 - 12:46 PM
          One, I highly doubt this is the next 'world-wide revolution'.

          Two, the 1-to-12 child screwed-in-divorce vs. child-support-payer mark is an -extreme- exaggeration. Don't confuse the idea with the reality. Please.

          Three, the "best hope we have for survival"?! What the -Hell- are you talking about?! You spout about global warming, which has already been nearly codified as a geological pattern of thermal shifts that is -minutely-, at best, influenced by human activities. At this juncture in your speech you're nose-diving into factual rock beds. Don't convert our continuing overpopulation crisis into a sudden worldwide depopulation threat undreamed of.

          You craft sensibly understandable points in the other areas of your post.

          ~ Kole
          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

            Sun, October 11, 2009 - 2:36 PM
            Kole, can you cite your sources on the post that global warming is not significantly due to human activity? All the scientificconclusions I read say something else.
            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

              Sun, October 11, 2009 - 3:59 PM
              Liberating a huge chunk of the human race from enforced the worst effects of ignorance & oppression, spreading hope & self-respect, decreased violence in the home, decreased slavery & child marriage, some population decrease, more women moving into public policy work, a huge untapped source of brainpower made available...

              The book & Times article.includes a story about Bill Gate's addressing an audience in Saudi Arabia It's 3/4 men, & 1/4 women, heavily veiled & behind a partition. A man says that Saudi Arabia wants to be a leader in world-wide technology in the next few years. Gates replys that it's impossible unless they use more of their country's untapped brainpower... to which the woman's side wildly cheered.

              We still have few women in govt' in this country. We have a long, long way to go, especially to be in power in such numbers that the old male dominant rules are no longer the template for gaining real influence .

              Yes, Kole, that's a revolution.. One that transcends, ethnicity, race, religion, borders. It is our best hope. Go read "Half the Sky", & see if you agree. Another revolution would be more & more men speaking & acting against violence & sexism. That's happening, too, tho' more slowly... too slowly.

              As for global warming being simply a result of natural climate shift... that's been so thoroughly rebuked by now I won't bother fully getting into it w/ you. It's like arguing w/ creationists. We can all read about it, & what's more experience it's effects every day. I live w/ mountains, & I can see how much faster the glaciers are melting... it's not natural. You really believe we can use resources the thoughtless way we do & not have to deal w/ the consequences? Since when do actions not cause reactions?


              The divorce stats are from Harpers- they're averages.
            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

              Sun, October 11, 2009 - 4:40 PM
              Liberating a huge chunk of the human race from enforced the worst effects of ignorance & oppression, spreading hope & self-respect, decreased violence in the home, decreased slavery & child marriage, some population decrease, more women moving into public policy work, a huge untapped source of brainpower made available...

              The book & Times article.includes a story about Bill Gate's addressing an audience in Saudi Arabia It's 3/4 men, & 1/4 women, heavily veiled & behind a partition. A man says that Saudi Arabia wants to be a leader in world-wide technology in the next few years. Gates replys that it's impossible unless they use more of their country's untapped brainpower... to which the woman's side wildly cheered.

              We still have few women in govt' in this country. We have a long, long way to go, especially to be in power in such numbers that the old male dominant rules are no longer the template for gaining real influence .

              Yes, Kole, that's a revolution.. One that transcends, ethnicity, race, religion, borders. It is our best hope. Go read "Half the Sky", & see if you agree. Another revolution would be more & more men speaking & acting against violence & sexism. That's happening, too, tho' more slowly... too slowly.

              As for global warming being simply a result of natural climate shift... that's been so thoroughly rebuked by now I won't bother fully getting into it w/ you. It's like arguing w/ creationists. We can all read about it, & what's more experience it's effects every day. I live w/ mountains, & I can see how much faster the glaciers are melting... it's not natural. You really believe we can use resources the thoughtless way we do & not have to deal w/ the consequences? Since when do actions not cause reactions?

              The divorce stats are from Harpers- they're averages.

              We don't have our relationships in a cultural & political void. The personal IS poltical.
              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                Sun, October 11, 2009 - 11:55 PM
                Oh, & by best hope for survival, I mean of our species, especially w/ a decent standard of living across a wider berth. I mean moving away from the levels of militarization we currently have, especially in heavily male dominant cultures w/ a young population. Mix that w/ religious fanatics in power, & it's a recipe for mass disaster & huge waste of resources, while we quibble over ideology, & who's top dog.

                I also mean greater personal freedom from fear, more happiness & love possible for many, many people.
                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                  Wed, October 28, 2009 - 10:12 AM
                  What an interesting conversation I spawned. It seems to suggest that talking about equality and equanimity between genders still needs to be talked about.
                  I also see that when we talk about men and women we talk on many different levels. There being a level that is material, there are biologically humans that are defined as men and there are humans that are women ( and people inbetween) . And there is a level that transcends that where we are people or even spirit having a people experience now. I think if we are conscious of those levels we can talk on more levels at the same time and still understand each other.
                  I don't think it's man bashing to talk about the basic well being of half the population of the world.
                  And I still suggest that the well being of Yemeni women has bearing on the well being of American women ( and vice versa) , and all other humans too.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                    Wed, October 28, 2009 - 2:11 PM
                    It's a different type of experience, one with its own value.

                    The Yemeni woman experience doesn't have a bearing on Western women unless they allow it. It is very easy, in the West, to remain emotionally untouched by so-called atrocities in other parts of the world. In many cases, the sense of connection and empathy has to be 'taught' since it isn't something that is culturally bequeathed to the young on a large-scale.

                    ~ Kole
            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

              Wed, October 28, 2009 - 2:35 PM
              Sure, Quel. Please take the time to read and then research any questions you have on the physics based side so that you fully understand

              A starter is the book, 'Uncontrollable Global Warming: Every 1500 years,' by Dennis Avery. " I disagree with many of Avery's views on other topics, but this one I cannot discount.

              Here's a website briefly explaining the science behind it. Please take the time to understand and research the physics and geological science behind it as you get to each point.

              www.middlebury.net/op-ed/gl...g-01.html

              A friend of mine at Stanford sent me this next link. It's a fairly hefty list of credible scientists and other researchers that have signed a petition specifically aganst the predictable, media-inspired hysteria centered about the 'fact' of human-induced global warming, in particular debunking the fuzzy-logic connection CO2 has with global warming.

              www.oism.org/pproject/

              Enjoy.

              ~ Kole
              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:46 PM
                I believe that empathy has to be taught and isn't much of the time. I also think that regardless of our consciousness about it the lives and wellbeing of others has bearing on our wellbeing. We can choose consciousness about that or remain ignorant.
                That's what we are dealing with in health care reform, people think that if they have health care then it doesn't help them to help other get health care. But in reality we spend the most money on health care in the industrialized world, when we have nationalized heath care we will be able to keep costs down, control insurance companies and have a healthier society in general which will help all of us, even those that have health care already. People often need to be lead to do the best thing for themselves, over their selfish desires which actually hurt them and others. People are crazy like that.
                I don't think it has much to do with men hurting women on purpose, most of the time. We ( americans and yemenis) live in a system that lets men abuse women and themselves too, call it patriarchy or the state of being human now. Loving kind people tend to want to be around other loving kind people. People who harm themselves tend to be around others that are ok with harming themselves.
              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                Fri, October 30, 2009 - 10:23 AM
                Um Kole you might want to check your sources on this . Most of those "scientists" are funded by and work for the OIL Companies. I do not believe for a moment that their work is objective.

                I especially got a kick out of little timmy ball
                en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_F._Ball

                Then we have RW Goldie. He is a planetary scientist that is famed for developing a portable planetarium. Not a lot of climate experience there. Oh earlier in his career he studied fish DNA <note not oceanic environments but rather DNA distribution>

                Fred Goldberg. He is a good one... He is funded by the Heartland institute. Wanna guess what they do?

                www.sourcewatch.org/index.php

                Yep big oil and Big tobacco... aside from their "Is no Climate Change Agenda" they also claim there is no connection between tobacco use and health effects.

                And Avery?? Well he is funded by a number of Ultra right wing conservative groups that base their ideology on open capitalizm free from any government control.

                www.sourcewatch.org/index.php

                Seriously Kole before you reprimand folks for not really looking at issues check to make sure you are not drinking the Koolaid

                JSin
                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                  Sat, October 31, 2009 - 3:51 AM
                  The same arguments could be said against the myriad of research scientists whose works would be left collecting dust on a library shelf if they had no 'alarming' truths to present to the world to inspire the type of mass frenzy that draws in publicity, money and a brief blurb in history books. Being inventive is an incentive. :)

                  The science discounting the claim cannot be disputed, and has been explained in various venues. The arguments of those convinced that manmade actions are the cause of the current worldwide warming cycle are spurious, but worth debating. Challenging them on the basis of their own political/corporate interests is useful, though perhaps solely as a study of added incentives. It hardly poses as a valid threat to the counterclaim itself.

                  The basis for many environment policy initiatives is, clearly, formed from an ecological -theory- that is really in a stage of infancy as to the amount of factual evidence discounting the cyclical geological and climactic phenomena that have been causing these changes for millenia.

                  ~ Kole
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                    Sat, October 31, 2009 - 5:45 AM
                    Well why don't we start with an independent academic organization that has vetted scientific research for 350 years:
                    The royal Society
                    royalsociety.org/page.asp

                    Find me some peer reviewed evidence that is not funded by folks who have a vested financial interest in denying climate change is occurring.

                    In other words some scientists that have not been bought off by big oil, big coal or a member of a right wing think tank.

                    The who concept of peer review was begun with the Royal Society and their funding is not tied to science that supports a political position, in fact very often work by their members runs headlong against what business and government wants, for example Darwin's work on natural selection.

                    As a body the Royal Society has reviewed thousands of studies and took the time to create a nice little FAQ addressing the major claims by the bought and paid for Big Oil "scientists".

                    JSin
                    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                      Sat, October 31, 2009 - 2:21 PM
                      Once again, you're citing people, vs. scientific arguments, and encouraging readers to make their decisions based on everything but those very argumentative bases outlined therein.

                      I'm slightly disappointed, but I'm finding this more prevalent with more people I encounter through the Web. Enjoy yourself, and stay safe, JSin.

                      ~ Kole
                      • global comfortabling

                        Sat, October 31, 2009 - 3:52 PM
                        For the record, I agree with Jsin (and most reasonable people) that anthropogenic global warming is real. As to the counterargument; citing a petition isn't very convincing, nor is a website that is dumbed down for the public and uses the same tactics as creationists who don't "believe" in evolution. But whatever.

                        Mostly this argument reminded me of this video. Which is funny.

                        www.youtube.com/watch
                        • Re: global comfortabling

                          Sat, October 31, 2009 - 9:22 PM
                          Basically, I'm just writing this post to see if It becomes part of the thread or disappears into the either like the last two posts I tried. Also, I think we're off topic?
  • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

    Sat, October 31, 2009 - 9:24 PM
    "This artcile from CNN is an extreme example but how different a society do we live in? We have a lack of medical care for women who are sexually active, we have a lack of education for all people, we still have a differnece is salaries between men and women who do the same job? Poverty, etc.. American women put up with abuse for financial reasons ( IE survival) . Are we different?
    As the last big discussion in ask a sexy man anything attests, financial differences are a huge source of fighting with couples. Can there be an equal relationship in this society ( or any other) with disperat income levels?"

    It becomes an issue when either of the two involved become dependent on the other's financial standard of living. Relying on the other person financially creates the type of relationship codependency that you reference.

    The trend seems to follow your assertion regarding 'disparate' income levels vs. equal relationships.

    ~ Kole
    • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

      Sun, November 1, 2009 - 5:45 PM
      Thanks Kole , back to the topic at hand.

      There does seem to be a huge pull to argue about extraneous things ( here and in ask a sexy women anything) . I don't remember how climate change came up because it seemed pointless to argue about it. I feel that pull to argue my point too sometimes and I discovered I can ignore it.
      Pointless arguing is actually a huge issue in couples come to think if it.

      So yes huge financially disparity will rear it's head in most a couple. I think it works best when the woman controls the money. The UN actually found that too. When they gave the money that needy people needed to the man, he fed himself, when they gave it to the women she fed her family and the community benefited .I'll try to find the article on that one, but I know that was the jist of it. I see how this could be like blaming men , but if it's true, than we need to work as societies to work around man's ( humans too) selfishness. Or people need their own money at all times but that doesn't solve access issues.
      • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

        Mon, November 2, 2009 - 12:35 AM
        There is an arrogance in the male that is in his basic design. He is designed to hunt and to protect. The woman is the gatherer. She created the society and she nurtures it. I sound like I'm talking about a hunter gatherer society don't I? Well the truth is we have advanced so far that we just ran up our own Jacksies!
        Women have advanced within the male dominated society in leaps and bounds over the last century. And Western society can claim an age of enlightenment when one of the most bigoted nations on Earth actually votes in a non-white as their leader. Sorry to say that to all you Americans who don't believe that, but we must all face the demon within each of us and exorcise it. This is where bigotry lies, not out there in the street. it lies deep within each of us. In the echoing words of our fathers and our fathers fathers. What's the common denominator with all Nazis? They worship a LOSER!!!!
        Who was George Armstrong Custer? a LOSER!!!!
        Chairman Mao??? hey he screwed over more people than anyone ever!
        What's the common denominator? Male.
        When I was single and I decided it was time to take a mate, I didn't let my penis tell me who it would be, I used my head. After all, My penis was having too much fun anyway.
        The woman I chose to be my wife had children so I didn't have to rise to that challenge. They were healthy and well behaved. She had a house in the country. Was attending university and running an acting school which she'd got into the black and kept it there for three years.
        She'd never taken a handout.
        Six months after we married she became ill and has never been healthy since. You've seen Kathleen Turner? Well my wife's in a similar boat. She still works.
        If I ran the world, I'd give her the keys.
        I gotta tell you that it's a real pain when you have only ten minutes to respond to some thing and then go do your chores or else miss out on another whipping.
        Damn!!!
        • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

          Mon, November 2, 2009 - 12:31 PM
          Well Gerard you seem to have learned some lessons that few men have.
          Arrogance is the basic design, I like that, it's sexy to a point. It's the willingness to hand over the keys that is neccesary for the right relationship I think. Why would men have the keys at all? Women as creators and nurturing of society, rings true.
          Chores are good. That's love , doing your chores with love for the women you love. I like this guy.
          • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

            Mon, November 2, 2009 - 10:22 PM
            Laugh!
            Sorry, too old to do the LOL thing.
            I'll be honest and say that there are quite a few men out there just like me and that I'm almost, what you night call "common".
            Many decades ago when I drove taxis in Sydney, I had a friend by the name of Said Said. He's Iranian/Australian and a Muslim and we became friends over a fight. We both drove night shift in the inner city and one night a driver hit their alarm and half a dozen cabs had the victim surrounded in less than five minutes. This was a time when a couple of drivers had been burned alive in the boot of their cabs after being robbed. Sahid and I were the first to arrive and were out of our cabs before the aggressor could land the first punch.
            The driver being threatened was a woman who thought driving less dangerous than hooking. (Her words) The aggressor was a big Tongan. Most Tongans are usually mistaken for giant statues and are usually over six foot....across the fist.
            Anyway, both of us appeared between the big Tongan and the woman at the same time. He didn't know which way to look and was so bemused he dropped his fist. I said "Walk!" and Sahid said "Now!"
            The monster of a man just turned and walked away.
            You learn to bullshit superpowers when you drive night shift.
            Anyway Sahid was driving taxis to make enough money to bring his mother over from Iran where she had no one to care for her and that society is one that does not care for women.
            We parted ways as people do when one or the other moves on as they do and we did. I saw him on a news report a couple of years ago. He was working in Welfare with young Islamic men teaching them about respect for women. Within our society here in Australia, the Islamic community is where the angry young men are who feel righteous about their poor treatment of women. In fact, I don't know if it was reported much overseas, but we had riots a few years back in Sydney and it was publicised that we were racist because it was between The Aussies that were like Steve Irwin and the Lebanese boys. The facts were that there were certain Islamic teachers who were calling other Australian women sluts and whores and the young men used that to harass and bully the women in the seaside suburb of Cronulla and the locals just got jack of it one day and trashed the perps.
            In true Aussie fashion, both sides met after a bit of grumbling and now we have Islamic women from the neighbouring suburbs working as lifeguards at the Cronulla beach.
            I've been in this country for nearly half a century and the last thing I would call an Aussie is racist or sexist. As with any country, there are a few angry young men who use any excuse to fight, and every now and then colour or sexual orientation comes into it, but if you can't find anyone who's different, then hell, you have a brother don't ya and he did put chilli in your ice cream when you were a kid.
            Men!
            What is wrong with our societies is that we don't centre ourselves on teaching these boys how to be real men. They idolise football stars and usually they fall short in the respectful behaviour department.
            We need to reassess our "political correctness" policy. Forget about getting rid of Gollywog from Noddy and start teaching kids that it's OK to be a Gollywog and that everybody from Noddy's town respects Gollywogs.
            • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

              Tue, November 3, 2009 - 7:12 AM
              Gerard wrote:
              "I've been in this country for nearly half a century and the last thing I would call an Aussie is racist or sexist. As with any country, there are a few angry young men who use any excuse to fight, and every now and then colour or sexual orientation comes into it, but if you can't find anyone who's different, then hell, you have a brother don't ya and he did put chilli in your ice cream when you were a kid. "

              It is interesting that you cite an American Genocidal maniac yet don't look in your own back yard. You do realize your country was still forceably taking aboriginal children from their mothers to "civilize" them all the way up to the 1950's. Sure your country has "apologized" but has done nothing to rectify the situation. Consider.... You said you have been there nearly half a century. That means the flagrantly genocidal policy of cultural relocation has just ended. In my reading I also noted a number of incidences into the 1990 where the government was still working on the "Aboriginal Problem" looking to ways to integrate them into white society. I guess the assumption even then was that the Aboriginal people were inferior and thus must be civilized by the whites.

              Last thing you would call the aussies is racist??? Give me a break. Your nations policies toward the aboriginal people is at least as bad as the US.

              www.wsws.org/articles/19...no-s07.shtml


              It also is interesting to me that it was key to your story that you make it clear the aggressor was Tongan. Did you take the time to find out his cultural heritage? Could he have been say Samoan? Or one of the other island nations? The assumption was because of his illegal behavior that he was Tongan. Same as here in the states when someone with light brown skin commits a crime it must be a mexican. That also is racist. Hard to make blanket statements about race isn't it when your behavior will quickly come under scrutiny.

              I am not saying you are a racist. But your blanket statement about aussies not being racist is patently false.

              JSin
              • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                Tue, November 3, 2009 - 11:55 AM
                He was a Tongan. We met again a couple of years later. He was running night shift in a cab station, surprisingly enough.
                As far as the stolen generation is concerned, this practice continued into the early nineteen seventies and surprisingly enough again, did not only include native Australians but women from all other groups. My wife included. Her first born was stolen. There was a Royal Commission and that one was not publicised worldwide. We have the transcripts.
                Yes sorry was said. And yes, land has been returned to the original owners in droves since the mid nineteen seventies and yes Aboriginal peoples are honoured in this society and no longer is there an attempts to turn them white. As far as violence was concerned in the taxi story, is there something missing you might ask. Considering it was an inaudible alarm which notifies the cab company and the police at the same time? There were no police in that story. Of all the negative experiences in the ten years of night shift Cabbing I had, around seventy per cent were instigated by police officers on and off duty. When I finished cabbing, I held the record for having a car (yet alone a taxi) parked in Everley Street Redfern, that being two hours while my fare and I had coffee and continued our discussion on historical struggles worldwide. I should point out that not even the police drove down Everley Street.
                Tonga, for those who don't know, is the only nation I know of in the world that has not been subjugated by another power. They are a giant of a people.
                One thing I found interesting when I look back into history, is in the preparation for war during the very late nineteen thirties, Germany stored Aryan blood for use solely on Aryan soldiers. Britain and Australia stored some red stuff to be used on anyone or anything that needed it and America sent two types to the war when they eventually decided it was their war too, the two types were white blood and black blood.
                Check out Spielberg's Saving Private Ryan and then tell me how far America has advanced since the events portrayed and then who is missing from the film.
                I think the film Boomerang said it all.
                • Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                  Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:15 AM
                  I should also make note that Redfern was, at that time, an Aboriginal stronghold community, sort of like Harlem is to New York.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                    Mon, November 9, 2009 - 1:32 PM
                    But do men and women ever have equal relationships?

                    I think so, I think I am in a place in my life where I can expect equality in all of my relationships and reality often conforms to my expectations. I also am privileged as an American women, an educated person, a person with resources, some autonomy , etc... With privilege comes responsibility. Plus I create the world I live in, and I can create equality by modeling it for others.

Recent topics in "Ask a Sexy Man ANYTHING"