# Accept influence. A marriage succeeds to the extent that the husband can accept influence from his wife. If a woman says, "Do you have to work Thursday night? My mother is coming that weekend, and I need your help getting ready," and her husband replies, "My plans are set, and I'm not changing them". This guy is in a shaky marriage. A husband's ability to be influenced by his wife (rather than vice-versa) is crucial because research shows women are already well practiced at accepting influence from men, and a true partnership only occurs when a husband can do so as well.
# Have high standards. Happy couples have high standards for each other even as newlyweds. The most successful couples are those who, even as newlyweds, refused to accept hurtful behavior from one another. The lower the level of tolerance for bad behavior in the beginning of a relationship, the happier the couple is down the road.
( From John Gottman, Psychologisy)
What do you think?
# Have high standards. Happy couples have high standards for each other even as newlyweds. The most successful couples are those who, even as newlyweds, refused to accept hurtful behavior from one another. The lower the level of tolerance for bad behavior in the beginning of a relationship, the happier the couple is down the road.
( From John Gottman, Psychologisy)
What do you think?
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Los Angeles
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 4:58 AMI'm not sure it is only the man who needs to stay open to being influenced by the wife (women can be amazingly resistant on some topics that can cause tension with their mates) but I do believe that, aside from that sexist slant, this offers very good advice.
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 6:59 AMA properly functioning relationship is give & take on a 50 - 50 basis, with each partner accepting influence/advice from the other. Half the fun of being partnered with somone is receiving the benefit of their insight! Many have been the times when my partner has pointed something out that I simply did not understand at the time, and the reverse is true to my then-g/f.
Any relationship without this kind of free exchange has missed an important level, and will never be complete without it.
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 8:36 AMaye, lass. -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 10:45 AMIs it sexist when a man John Gottman, does the research on relationships, and then gathers that what works is if men accept the influence of their wives more? -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 10:52 AMJust because the research is by a man does not mean it can't be sexist against men. There are also PLENTY of women who are sexist against women. We often adopt the views of our culture even when they are detrimental to our selves. -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 11:18 AMI don't see how John Gottman was speaking against men by saying they need to take the influence of their wives more seriously.
I think he is trying to help men have better relationships, and help women too.
Our culture , John Gottman's culture tends to be sexist against women. I don't find his comments sexist. His intent must mean something. -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 8:02 PMShe's saying it's sexist because it didn't address the fact that wives can, and should be, doing the very same for their husbands (it's an individual thang; addressing a cultural trend as a coverall relational health tip for people exacerbates the problem itself by acknowledging it as an inavoidable fact of reality, as opposed to something that is as malleable as an individual paradigm shift). :)
That's how it is sexist :).
~ Kole -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 8:30 PMIt assumes that wives ( women ) already take the influence of men. It assumes that we already do that, it says that right in the intial paragraph, that women are used to listening to men. -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 11:16 PMThen the assumption is wrong. Or it is out of date. I would like to see the studies on that because.. really.... very few of the women I have dated have demonstrated that trait. The ones that have, have self identified as submissives.
JSin
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:28 AMYes, you're right. It assumes that women, simply by nature of their sex, have already mastered the art of yielding to their mate's desires. That is sexist.
It assumes that men, by sheer virtue of their sex, are resistant to yielding to their mates desires. That is sexist.
It assumes that the supposedly feminine trait of yielding is a beneficial and desirable while the supposedly masculine tendency to hold fast to his desires and not yield to his partner is non-beneficial and undesirable. That, too, is sexist.
It tells women that they are doing fine while telling men they must become more like women because they are flawed. That is outrageously sexist.
Do you see where I am coming from now? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 7:43 AMOr to put not so fine an edge on it. I assumes that women are the weaker sex.
JSin
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 5:29 PMAshleigh wrote:
>"If a woman says, "Do you have to work Thursday night? My mother is coming that weekend, and I need your help getting ready," and her husband replies, "My plans are set, and I'm not changing them". This guy is in a shaky marriage."<
In this example she likely would get a no I have to work. Especially if it were planned ahead. My Question would be why didn't you let me know with more notice that your mom was coming for the weekend? Seriously it goes both ways. A weekend visit would imply that it was planned. Likely with more lead time than a couple days. In that case I would make room to help accomplish what needed to happen to get ready for it. A visit from Mom is not a reason to miss work if the time at work is required.
On the more general question. I have no problem working with a partner to accomplish larger goals. I am not certain what EXACTLY is meant by influence. In general I accept a great deal of influence from a female partner. I have not seen that it has particularly made my relationships much better if at all. In fact my shrink is working on gettin me to be a bit harder line in not letting women in my life overextend or demand as much from me. She would likely advise me in the afore mentioned scenario to tell her exactly what the researcher has said not to do.
JSin
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Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 10:37 AMI think Dr. Gottman is a frickin' genius who has revolutionized objective study of marriage and provided sound evidence, backed by clearly documented and replicable data, that he knows how to spot the signs of marital durability. Whether marital durability is always a good thing for all people is another question, and I am always suspicious of people who think it is for all people and all marriages.
Half of all marriages end in death. -
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 10:53 AMWhile he may be a genius it also appears that the standard he is bearing is rooted in older thought. Either that or his theories are still a bit premature and in need of more evolution. This is not a bad thing. All things evolve as do all social systems <ok some devolve but I am trying to be optimistic>
The quote as stated was hedged in a traditional and sexist slant. It also had no date as to what it was lifted from or the piece of work it is cited from. Who knows later work and theory by Gottman may reflect the changing attitudes and behaviors of the genders. We do not have that to evaluate. This is part of the problem with discussions that just provide a quote from an author with out a reference or point of reference.
JSIn -
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:05 PMJohn Gottman I believe was working in the 60's and 70's. He was a pioneer of marriage psychology. Although I suspect marriages have not changed that much since then for the majority of men and women. I agree some of his observations are out of date.
He is coming from a traditional man/women marriage perspective. He is making generalizations about women and about men.( it's useful to make generalization when learning and teaching academics and many times in real life too) He is generalizing that women listen as a habit. I find this to be true in my life. I talk to my mom and my psychologist most and they are women.
He is looking to maximize the behaviors that make marriages happy and long lasting. He has come to the conclusion that men listening more to women makes that happen. It actually assumes a lot, his books, that your are wanting a heterosexual relationship, that you want it to be happy and long lasting, that you can read English. All assumed.
It may sound, it may be sexist. Let's debate if it is true, or useful . Shall we? -
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:20 PMDuring that time some things were very true and very sexist like
Women have no place in the workplace
Housekeeping is women's work
Women only go to college to catch a husband
A Man who does not work full time for a living and supports his family without the woman working is a bum
Men are the undisputed Kings of the household
Men are always right
Men should not be questioned
Women should learn their place and shut up
Ya see this is the culture you are citing out of. In that case the stuff he wrote as indicated is useless, outmoded, sexist, and pointless. Traditional roles are not set up like that. Even my folks marriage wasn't like that traditional model. Modern women are not any better listeners or any more easily influenced on balance than their male counterparts. If anything through the vaginization of Men at least here on the west coast a big complaint I hear from women is having partners that lack a spine. There is a balance between them but if this is a cornerstone of Gottman's work he really needs to look at more current models of men and women.
While generalization can be valuble in looking at large populations it needs to be updated to reflect current trending.
Oh and for folks following at home this looks like the original sourcing
www.gottman.com/marriage/self_help/
JSIn -
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 2:47 PMThe difference is that now, women decide for ourselves ( some women ) is the work world is our place or not. If we go to college to get an education and a husband or neither. Men have more lead way too with decisions about staying home.
I think we tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, some tradtions heterosexual relationship wise. ( you know the ones that vast majority of americans are still looking for )
Some people want that. Some don't. Here in tribe, is not a bastion of people who want more traditional heterosexual relationships. I don't even want it.
Some assumptions of relationships and women and men from the 60's-70's were right on. Do we have to throw out everything because it may seem or even be sexist? It could still be true and be judged on it's merits.
Some women prefer their man to be the king of the household. Some men want to stay home and rear children. It doesn't mean one is right and the other wrong.
He did a lot of research some of which is very useful, and has a point. Could also be sexist and needs to be updated for other kinds of couples. -
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 3:17 PMAshleigh wrote:
>"Do we have to throw out everything because it may seem or even be sexist? It could still be true and be judged on it's merits. "<
In terms of the statement in question concerning men accepting influence and women already good listeners... Yes out part and parcel because it is untrue and sexist.
As for Gottmans other suggestions and ideas on that page some are good for example:
"Edit yourself. Couples who avoid saying every critical thought when discussing touchy topics are consistently the happiest."
"Soften your "start up." Arguments first "start up" because a spouse sometimes escalates the conflict from the get-go by making a critical or contemptuous remark in a confrontational tone. Bring up problems gently and without blame."
" Learn to repair and exit the argument. Successful couples know how to exit an argument. Happy couples know how to repair the situation before an argument gets completely out of control. Successful repair attempts include: changing the topic to something completely unrelated; using humor; stroking your partner with a caring remark ("I understand that this is hard for you"); making it clear you're on common ground ("This is our problem"); backing down (in marriage, as in the martial art Aikido, you have to yield to win); and, in general, offering signs of appreciation for your partner and his or her feelings along the way ("I really appreciate and want to thank you for.…"). If an argument gets too heated, take a 20-minute break, and agree to approach the topic again when you are both calm."
" Focus on the bright side. In a happy marriage, while discussing problems, couples make at least five times as many positive statements to and about each other and their relationship as negative ones. For example, "We laugh a lot;" not, "We never have any fun". A good marriage must have a rich climate of positivity. Make deposits to your emotional bank account. "
Guess what not a single one of those statements make any reference to one party being responsible for a course of action.
The Statement concerning High standards misses one point. Have High standards for yourself. It is not just the other person's behavior that should be judged. Though I am am willing to accept that perhaps it is an editorial issue.
JSIn
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 3:56 PM"Try to be good" and "don't assume you're perfect." Sounds pretty good to me. Having dipped into Goffman off and on over the last twenty years, most of what he has to say is that relationships do better when people don't belittle each other and do try to find mutually-agreeable ways to disagree and move on. Happy divorces work pretty much the same way. It is when one party or the other is trying to "own" or "win" a relationship without regard for the other that things go south. Although as a scientist he was working in a time when heteronormative relationships were dominant, the actual behaviors he analyzed (such as eye-rolling) are not particularly gendered, if memory serves. Gottman rocks, and watching for the physically observable signs he describes in some of his more famous "observed argument" studies was pretty soundly predictive for me. Working to change them tended to improve a lot of relationships, and not just romantic ones.
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 7:15 PM"He is generalizing that women listen as a habit. I find this to be true in my life. I talk to my mom and my psychologist most and they are women."
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I'm not sure if I find this especially true in my limited experience.
Probably everybody here can cite experiences, possibly spectacular instances, where somebody they were involved with didn't listen well, be it man or woman.
Maybe you talk to the women in your life and relate to them easily as women; correspondingly, guys might think that other guys are good as listening to them and getting what they're saying. I dunno.
I've experience a wide range of listening capabilities from both men and women. And I've probably been up and down the spectrum myself, as far as listening skills go. Hopefully I've gotten better with age and experience. Hard to say for sure, though. -
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Stirring the pot
Thu, May 22, 2008 - 11:01 PMA Vietnamese friend told me, "Men pretend they are listening and hear nothing. Women pretend they are not listening and hear everything." This cracked me up within the context of family life, but I don't think it applies so well to one-on-one conversations.
My closest friends tend to be men who are very sensitive, gifted listeners. They are out there, for sure. I think it's easier to be deeply attentive to someone you find attractive. So much of listening is non-verbal, you need all your senses.
I like Gottman's work, but tend to discount the gender generalizations. Either gender can go through the motions instead of really being engaged in the relationship.
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Re: Gottman is a Genius
Wed, May 21, 2008 - 8:38 PMNah.
All he is is a person with a vocabularic brain able to verbalize the points both sexes have made over the years.
It's a good life project, but I wouldn't overvalue it by calling it genius.
~ Kole
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 6:30 AMi don't know this guy's work, and as usual, a lot of this dissecting the fantasy perfect marriage stuff is, to me, exhausting... mostly because real relationships happen right now, in the moment, and examining everything with a microscope -- *especially* if the motivation is to create a standard of the perfect fantasy marriage -- you miss the magic of the whole thing.
but i completely agree with number two, though i would phrase it differently. i think that meanness or hurtful behavior is as toxic to the person dishing it out as it is to the person taking it, and should be avoided at all cost. once you let it weave its way into a relationship, it's like a boat with a slow leak... it might take a while, but it's going to take you down.
most of the pain i know people carry from failed relationships has to do with hurtful words that were said or hurtful things that were done. i was married for 18 years, and while we both have disappointments, and the life of the marriage ran its course, i don't think either of us intentionally inflicted hurtful things on the other one ever, and that was a very good thing. -
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Re: Do you accept women's influence in your relationship.
Tue, May 27, 2008 - 1:34 PMI don't get the reluctance to learn better skills for whatever you are doing. I don't think it's a fanstasy to have a relationship where my influence is accepted by my husband.
If I were pregnant I would read, What to expect when you are expecting. I have never been a mom, I think I will be great but why not read some books about parenting. I won't be perfect, becuase there are no perfect people.
Nobody says you want the fantasy career, if I spend time and energy going to school and reading about my ideal career.
I have never been married, nor do I have healthy role models in my life for healthy marriages. Most that I have seen end in divorce and lots of dysfunction. So I gain knowledge from other people who have done what I want to do , and who have done it well. No perfection exists but I know there is a much better way to be married then what I've seen in general.
I see that people are relunctant to examine thier relationships. People are often reluctant to examine thier own parenting, or career or lack of career. It's not comfortable. It's often down right painful. And exhausting.
Like Harville Hendrix says, A conscious relationship is difficult. If it were easy we would all have one.
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