<The differences between people in a single gender is far wider than between the genders themselves. >

My thoughts (for a long long time) exactly. Thanks David!

It is manipulation..that to me is the long and short of it..

Still think he is a shitcan after looking more at him. just another hippy dippy neocultist.

He tends to paint incredibly complex phenomenon with a broad general brush then tries to vend it as the one true way. I have next to no use for him.

JSin

I listened to the audio and I think it is really presumptuous to tell people what they "should" want or what kind of life they will want to look back on from their deathbed. How does David Deida know what kind of life this young man will want to look back on? He is telling rather than listening.

I think I understand why you like this Leslie, because he encourages men to deepen. And encouraging men to look deeper into themselves is a good thing. But he does not just do it by example, he does it in the way that he is the "expert" on someone else's life. I do not think that anyone is all-knowing enough to tell other people what their values should be.

This is a full circle and we always return to our pain and our shadow. In opening to that shadow we all move at our own speed. I think my values as a man may be very different than the next guy's.

Well, I am becoming more and more convinced that this stuff is for single people who aren't dealing with real life relationships, because it just doesn't work that way no matter how 'evolved' you think you are or he is. Like Jsin says, it's using simple things to try and deal with a complex issue.

I think 2 things can come from this thinking:
1. You will be single forever
2. you will find someone with complementary delusions of grandeur and fake your way through happiness

I would have to say (tho I haven't read all the way to the bottom of this thread yet...) that one also has to consider the "Self" in this. I think we know why a man chases a woman...he wants her, and that can be in a full range from "just right now" to "lifelong partner."

BUT... the big question that also has to be asked is "when *should* a man commit to someone?"

It's not that we are afraid of commitment....it's that the man is placed in a very awkward situation at all times...he has to pursue and show interest, even before he knows if SHE is the one that is going to "elevate" his own life.

Take me..I'm hella picky about committing, because I need to know that the relationship is going to be one that leaves me happy and has the potential to keep me happy or a long time. I'm not going to commit to anyone just because we date a bit. (Note I didn't say "make me happy" cuz its not my partner's job to MAKE me happy...just...enable my happiness, I guess).

Commitment is HUGE because it holds an important place for me. I won't commit unless I feel I can MAKE that commitment and be happy. If the relationship isn't AWESOME then people should not commit at all, because eventually, given time, the things that keep it from being AWESOME are going to lead to disaster.

And to be honest, very few relationships turn out to be AWESOME. It takes work and perseverance, but it also has to BE there. You can't make something awesome if it just isn't.

But to attempt to answer: "Why are you pursuing me?"
Well...it's gonna be different at different times, even with the same two people. People's motivations are never a constant.

Just my 2 cents!

:-)

If communication isn't good, if life goals aren't the same, then commitment jut doesn't make sense.

I understand wanting to know the "why?" and I have asked that question myself..."why are you interested in me?"
but having all my purpose worked pout beforehand? Impossible.

We all constantly change, and to be honest, every person is different...I might pursue one person for a set of reasons, and pursue another person for totally different reasons.

No single person is ever going to satisfy everything we need in life, so with one person, you get a whole set of positives, and a set of negatives. it;s up to us all to determine whether the negatives overrule the positives or the positives make the negatives OK.

No-one can work those things out beforehand.....you have to take it as it comes and you learn more and more about the person.

Our reasons for pursuing , committing, or not committing are ever-changing just like life.....I may pursue you one day, then discov

throw the log on the fire yourself,,,,

at the beginning of this thread was a note regarding

commitment , its a false stereotype that men are afraid

to commit,,,a lot of women choose these men,,,they themselves

aren't looking to commit tho they would rather olace the onus on

the guy,,,and sometimes, women look at these guys as a challenge,,,

similar to when one person wants closeness and the other wants distance,,,,

Soon after its turned where the pursuer becomes the persued then they also want distance,,,


When a relation becomes something compatable and in tune with each other then

it doesn't matter anymore what book has been read,,,

It's an ongoing sub-plot here on Tribe, which Aschleigh handles with indefatigable aplomb.

You remember Charlie Brown and the Little Red-Haired Girl? It's like that.

meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don...be_a_dick

I thought he brought it up to point out a lack of validity to the story Aschleigh read, which, one could argue is a common type of text about which her threads are started.

Really, with a lot of this new 'spirituality', it's a hashing of many beliefs, but devotees of many of the core religions will tell you, you cannot mix and match to make it say what you want. You might as well cut and paste sections of the Constitution together or take Led Zeppelin and Britney Spears and mash them up, claiming this was their intention. Entertaining, yes but not much else.

There is also a tendency for points to be made with little background information, if any and an unwillingness to question dogma. It's as if the threads are totally meant to be a reinforcement of established beliefs and not an honest discussion about them. I may has well start a thread about what Jesus has done for everyone lately. This can be frustrating, but after a while, I personally give up. I know I am wasting my time and losing IQ points every time I waste my brain trying to get through the brick wall of dogmatism.

Granted, there are many tiring things about the back and forth between Jsin and Aschleigh. I think they enjoy the banter on some level and wouldn't doubt that it presents an opportunity for soapboxing, which is a huge stroke to the ego and can serve to reinforce one's position if only in one's own mind. ( I am not pointing fingers at one or the other here)

Sometimes, Asch makes decent points and her heart is in the right place.
Jsin is obviously more intellectually curious and well rounded, even if he is abrasive. I'll take a smart asshole over a happy nit wit any day (not that I'm calling names here). Of course, smart, happy and nice are best together.

To look at the validity of a point of reference. Accuracy for me is important.

I find it amusing that you believe I brought up silence to end discussion... far from the truth really. I thrive in discussion and welcome all comers. My post to you was directly in line with your apparent desire to discuss Ashleigh.

Not gonna do it. Differences I may have with her i will discuss in relation to posts. i don't do drama queening.

It also appears you have not noticed that my posts have spurred further discussion not only on Trappists but the importance of well worded discussion in order to establish credibility. It is my hope that Ashliegh will take a bit of that away from this discussion and understand that credibility is heavily tied to accuracy and research.

If she had placed said same parable out as being a discussion between a Buddhist Monk initiate and a begger... and properly termed it as enlightenment I would not have been compelled to do any digging... It would jive with the historical basis and the sociological paradigm.

In smaller words i would have bought it.

As for you sol... really connect arguments.. I fail to see how what i stated as you refered:
Sol Stated>
"then why bring up trappist monks and silence as a way of silencing

a valid point, even if you don't agree with it ,,,"

How exactly does that follow? Seriously

Never at any point did I start a discussion on Trappists. I responded to an inaccurate parable.

JSin

"Despite Deida's impassioned pleas for loving women in all their authentic femininity, the whiff of misogyny continues. "

Any man who gives impassioned pleas for loving women is going to get my attention.
Really, ask all the women in your life ( especially the smart ones) , ask them how there relationships with men have gone. Domestic violence is so much more common than we know. Real loving of and respect for the feminine is still fairly rare . We need all the help we can get in my opinion. Men who give impassioned pleas for loving women ( however flawed) deserve some air time. How many men even think about it , much less with any depth . I'm happy to have found David Deida and look at all the discussions he's sparked here on tribe.

Why would I expect worship and complete service/commitment to... ME? Whether that be on a material, emotional or spiritual level.. why would I expect that or look for that as a "higher love" from... an other? Is that "spiritual......" or fantastic? On the other hand, integrity is something I should find and give in any personal relationship I intend to maintain.

Poontangle I hear that you have decided that integrity is something you need and need to give in any relationship you intend to maintain.
Why not have mutual worship, service and committment in any relationship you intend to maintain? Especially if those things are being freely offered to you by the women you are in a relationship with that she intends to maintain. ( on all the leves you can operate on currently)

well, I think it's a duty to call out misinformation. Plenty of people teach malarky and it damages.