So comments on the other thread got me curious. Do you consider the term Vanilla judgmental? If it is applied to you do you take offense?

Personally I find it curious, Vanilla much like breeder, gay or bi is a descriptive term to share some light on a persons lifestyle in my opinion not a judgment call although like all things in language it can be used in a vareity of ways and means.

Your thoughts?
posted by:
  • I like Vanilla... there is so much you can do with and too it to make it very special...
    It is good and sweet on its own but with just a little imagination...
    Wow!
    • "I like Vanilla... there is so much you can do with and too it to make it very special..."

      I agree, and it's considered to be an aphrodesiac when worn as a fragrance.

      But to address the original question;

      I feel that the term Vanilla as a descriptor regarding sexuality tends to be used in a negative way in most contexts I've seen it used. Most folks don't describe their own sexuality as "vanilla" as often as others use it as a judgement about a type of sexual preferences which are considered to be conservative and lacking imagination. Just my opinion.

      And I have to add, I've always found the term "breeder" rather offensive (being among those who have been referenced as such). It seems to be used with disdain in the circles I've heard it used.
  • for me it's just a descriptor. Vanilla is more culturally normative sexual and romantic behavior. That's it. I engage in vanilla activities frequently. I have a lot of vanilla sex. I would never want vanilla out of my life, but I'd never want my dark streak to disappear either.
    • I agree entirely with what Myriad said. I have lived a vanilla lifestyle for a very long time, with some aspects of kink. Now that I'm getting more kinky, I'm not going to abandon things that I've enjoyed in the past, just because they're more mainstream than some of my other activities.
  • It seems as if those who would not be considered vanilla are the ones who use it. No one describes themselves that way, so maybe it is offensive to those described, oui?

    To me the word connotes blandness, a lack of spice and passion and all of the images that accompany 'whiteness'. It's like saying something is really 'white' when you are not white. It smacks of division.

    I don't care for the term breeder either, it seems to lump everyone with a child together. There are plenty of gay and bi people with kids too. Really, what it boils down to is that I rarely see those words used in a way that's not derogatory and it's never used by one who would describe themselves as such.

    I mean, 'colored' was once considered a descriptor as well.

    For the record, I'm a dirty little girl when I want to be, but I don't cast aspersions on those who like to keep it traditional.
    • "It seems as if those who would not be considered vanilla are the ones who use it. No one describes themselves that way, so maybe it is offensive to those described, oui?"

      That doesn't really make sense. If the people using the term don't view it as insulting and mean no disrespect by it then the only thing left to get offended by is the listener's own insecurities that their practices are secretely viewed as being somehow lesser or boring.

      I don't like the term breeder simply because I feel it is often used inacurately. I, for instance, engage in primarily heterosexual encounters, but I will never have children. I am not a breeder. The same would go for my very strait friend T, who has chosen to get himself snipped. He's strait, but he's not a breeder. Besides, we already have a perfectly good name for breeders. They're called "parents."

      I also hate to break it to you but when I was growing up in DC "colored" was one of the words we were ASKED to use instead of "black," or "negro," both of which were thought to be derogatory and "African American," which was sometimes inacurate. For example: men who actually ARE visiting for Kenya may take offense at being called and "African American." They're African damnit! The same thing goes for some folks with Jamaican heritage. They don't think of themselves as "African Americans." And still others are just Americans and no longer claim Africa as part of their heritage. Then I moved to South Dakota and "colored" was impolite but "negro" and "black" were fine. It's enough to make my head spin. Out here I don't know what the fuck to call anybody because everybody gets so easily offended. Maybe I'll just start saying "He's brown," and "She's beige."
      • "That doesn't really make sense. If the people using the term don't view it as insulting and mean no disrespect by it then the only thing left to get offended by is the listener's own insecurities that their practices are secretely viewed as being somehow lesser or boring."
        - - - >
        I think maybe the implication is that it's subtly condescending, as in sometimes people aren't aware of their own pretentious attitudes until they're called on it. You have to admit that to call something "vanilla" is to contain it in a little box of your own definition somewhat, which I could see people finding objectionable.

        Personally, I think "vanilla" is ok to describe things (like ice cream, of course, but also other stuff that might be tried and true but not necessarily with any much element of surprise or experimentation included), but maybe a little bit of a judgement call, i.e., perhaps slightly condescending, when applied to people.

        "Breeder" - I thought that was applied to people who actually do have progeny! I guess I was dimly aware that it was applied to any heterosexual couple, which does seem condescending as well in a "I know what you think" kind of way.

        Color ~ yeah, my dad found it curious when I updated him that "people of color" was acceptable in the popular parlance, but "colored people" was not, back so many years ago.

        "Indian" ~ It seemed like people were shying away from using this word for a while, but I've heard that some tribes prefer the term, as, they point out, everyone born in america is a "native american".
        • <I think maybe the implication is that it's subtly condescending, as in sometimes people aren't aware of their own pretentious attitudes until they're called on it. You have to admit that to call something "vanilla" is to contain it in a little box of your own definition somewhat, which I could see people finding objectionable. >

          Exactly. Vanilla is not a definition I use for myself. However, I know that there are some to whom I seem unbearably "vanilla", just as I know there are some to whom I seem threateningly exotic. I have never heard "vanilla" used as a compliment or even by those who might actually *be* vanilla. EVERYONE is someone's "vanilla".
      • I have to say I find it fascinating that someone would try to tell a black person what is offensive to blacks. Your experience in DC is not the norm, so I hate to break it to you.

        So, if I call gays fags or fairies or call whites honeys or crackers, it's ok if I didn't mean any harm by it? I'm sorry, but it is you who don't make sense, IMO.

        <<If the people using the term don't view it as insulting and mean no disrespect by it then the only thing left to get offended by is the listener's own insecurities that their practices are secretely viewed as being somehow lesser or boring.>>

        To me, this statement smacks of someone who is unwilling to censor themselves out of respect for the feelings of others. How can you possibly know why someone is offended? They may have very good reason. Just as the DC norm is not the standard, your opinion of why someone takes offense may represent a small sample from your experience alone. The unwillingness of people to accept accountability for their words is so widespread these days, it makes me sad. If people did that, we wouldn't have the backlash of political correctness. Words can affect in ways that change the course of history. It's a mighty gift which requires a mighty responsibility, especially when attached to other people.
        • Woah, I'm not trying to tell anybody was is or isn't offensive to anyone else. I'm telling you what I was ASKED to call folks in different areas and which lables those people preferred for themselves.

          And yes, my gay friends jokingly call eachother "fag" and, because I know them and they know I mean no harm by it, I can too. I have friends who call me "Cracker." Why? Because I am! But they love me and mean me no harm so the word is sweet in their mouth. Any word can be filthy when said with scorn but I don't believe there are any words that are inherently bad or unclean. Context and intent are everything. Words are only symbols to convey meaning and if the meaning is benign I can see no harm.

          So why DO you take offense to the word "Vanilla?" If we assume that folks like me are using it with no malice simply as a way to describe practices that are culturally normative rather than culturally abnormal then what, precisely, is the offense? Do you dislike vanilla?

          I am taking accountability for what I am trying to communicate NOT for your interpretation of what I am trying to communicate. I absolutely refuse to enter that fruitless game of trying to second guess what every person is going to twist my words into meaning. There is nothing in the definition of the word "vanilla" that is in any way condescending or insulting. You put the hatred there and, as far as I am concerned, you can keep it.
          • I don't see where I put any hatred into anything. In fact, I don't assume people are trying to be offensive, but I don't see the problem in letting them know that it could be taken that way. I'm just saying that there's nothing wrong with taking into account the feelings of others. If I tell you something is offensive and then you tell me that's my problem and you're going to keep on doing it because I'm somehow insecure, thats not taking accountability or employing empathy.

            I already explained why I don't care for the word in my first post. I have to wonder why the fact that I don't like a word is so upsetting to people. If you don't care as long as your intent is good, why get bent?

            Your examples are insular and beg for relevancy. The term 'vanilla' is generally not used in an insular fashion.

            <<I have friends who call me "Cracker." Why? Because I am! >>
            Really? I had no idea you were into whipping slaves so they would work harder in cotton fields. I have NEVER heard this word used in a fashion that was anything other than an insult. It's creation in the first place is tooted in an awful reality.

            Look, I use the word 'bitch' with my friends but there are some people I know that take offense to the term because of their life experience in the degradation of women so I take care not to say in in their presence. It's no imposition for me to avoid that word around them and it shows that I respect who they are and what they believe. I don't know what the big deal is.
            • I am upset because you are insisting that I am being insulting when I use a completely harmless word with no ill-intent. I consistently become upset when people try to tell me I have ulterior or sinister motives behind my words when I say that I do not. I also find it interesting that the kink community which has spoken up so far doesn't seem to see anything wrong or derogatory about being vanilla. People attempt to force fine and useful words out of my vocabulary simply because they have a personal issue with them that isn't even present in the term and I resent that. People ascribe motives to me that I do not hold and I resent that as well. The kink community coined the term vanilla to describe what we do when we aren't in a kink session and partner's who don't participate in kink and the kink community doesn't seem to think it's degrading or insulting. If a person does have no respect for folks who are vanilla then making them use another word isn't going to get them to respect you one iota more but pitching a fit about being called what you are when no harm or insult is meant strikes me as rather petulant and inconsiderate.

              And yes, quel, I do whip slaves, but not because I want them to work harder in any field. I whip them because they begged me to. I am also as pasty as your average Saltine despite my mutt heritage so I think both definitions of "cracker" may define me rather well.

              See, "bitch" has a derogatory definition. I can understand why people would resent being compared to a dog in heat. Vanilla is something that, as a substance, almost everybody enjoys and finds pleasant. The only conceivable insult to the word is either in the mind of the speaker or the mind of the hearer. If the speaker carries no insult in their voice or manner then the listener has absolutely no reason to take offense at the term unless THEY are uncomfortable with being vanilla. It's like if you got offended at a person calling you "honey." Honey is generally agreed upon as being a good thing and unless the person is using it in a sarcastic or condescending manner then there is nothing wrong with it. Now, granted, if you get your knickers in a twist when I call you "honey" I'll probably stop calling you that, and if you have a term other than "vanilla" that you think better describes individuals with culturally normative sexual practices you let me know and if I'm ever talking to you I'll try and remember to use it. I will not, however, stop referring to certain practices as "vanilla" because some people don't like the term just as I will not stop referring to other practices as "kinky" because some folks don't like that term either. They are in most cases my practices and I'll define them how I please.
              • Hey, I never told anyone what to do or said anything personal about you. I was just expressing my opinion and by your response, I can see you didn't really look at my post and get the point about a term being used by those who would be described as such. If you don't get what I'm saying, that's fine but you have to admit that 'cracker' is also a derogatory term despite your version of a slave. Sexual deference is very different than forced labor and you know it.

                I don't agree with you, that doesn't mean I'm trying to control you. There's nothing to be upset about. I was just trying to have a discussion, but since you feel as if I'm offending you, I will not persist in disagreeing with you out of respect for your feelings.
                • I know the difference in kinds of slavery, yes, but "cracker" and "honkey" and "wasichu" and "pervert" and "yid" AND "shikse" AND "krout" and a whole host of other terms all apply to me. None of those words bother me. They describe what I am and I'm fine with that. If a person hates me BECAUSE of I am these things I may take issue, but the names themselves have never bothered me at all. You can call me any or all of them, and many more, because I have no shame in what they point out in me.
  • i think it seems judgemental. i don't find it particularly offensive, although I'm what people seem to mean when they use the term - i'm not into bdsm or polyamory. It amuses me a bit, because the implication that vanilla sex doesn't afford the same degree of pleasure as some form of kink is laughable. i used to use the phrase "straight" to describe the lifestyle, but that overlaps with other things. now i just call it "uncomplicated".


    • absolutely everything seems like a judgment to me
      i.e., rocky road, neopolitan, mint chocolate chip, ice cream, ice, cream, scoop, personality, baking, shaking, sexy, man . . .

      that being said, vanilla means...
      personable, proud, popular, and enjoying life's simple pleasures
      • I agree. Vanilla tends to be a bit pejoritive. It's almost as if Vanilla types are less "hip" or "sophisticated." That said, what constitutes vanilla behavior or sex? For some, anything outside of missionary with the lights off would be a bit spicy. For others, light spanking, oral, anal, the occaisional ribbon, string, or bondage suggestive hand holding might smack of kinky, or vanilla depending on your perspecitve. Personally, I've done some things that I might have thought were out there a decade ago, but to me, I feel pretty vanilla.
  • What the fuck is vanilla anymore, anyway?

    Fri, May 2, 2008 - 7:28 PM
    I mean I -- and it's true, I'm a very old person -- can recall a time when a blowjob was something only the most depraved slut would do... or at least that was the ostensible standard.

    Now, it's "Oh, we didn't do anything *kinky.* Just a little light bondage and some spanking."
    • Re: What the fuck is vanilla anymore, anyway?

      Sat, May 3, 2008 - 10:02 AM
      it'd make as much sense for me to get offended by someone calling me vanilla as it would be to get offended by someone calling me a white 32-yr-old single male. what the fuck ever. i feel the same about someone calling me a breeder. for one thing, it's not even true to call me a breeder. i am heterosexual, but i have no children. again, what the fuck ever.
      i agree w/myriad. i like vanilla. i like other things. i feel perfectly ok w/having both.
      if somebody wants to look down on me for not being kinky enough, or being too kinky, let em. in the meantime, where's my fucking bacon? i'm hungry!
  • I think it's used sometimes to mean "boring" but when
    you think about it, vanilla can be a foundational flavor.
    Even chocolate chip cookies need some vanilla.
    If we had no vanilla, things would taste off. And
    face it, no one would want everything to taste
    like some pungent flavor.

    We all need some vanilla in our lives.
    • I'm with Vixxen as far as vanilla being foundational. As my ex-brother-in-law used to say... it's only kinky the first time ;-)

      I think lifestyle definitely has something to do with it too. My sweetie and I both have a reasonably high sex drive - most of the time we have sex once or twice a day... fondly referred to as maintenance sex... pretty vanilla compared to our *sex day* adventures, but still satisfying. Unless the kids are gone and we know we aren't going to be disturbed for a few hours we don't usually get our kink on, but that's why we plan sex days!
      • wow who knew this discussion could get so complicated? im not even sure how you define vanillay. if its monogomous or straight people thats me. but what if im into bdsm? am i kinky?

        which brings me to one of my favourite quotes of all time, "arre you kinky?" think blonde lil angie with a french accent, mmmmm.

        but anyways. i think what people mean when they say vanilla is someone not willing to explore themselves sexually. its more a mindset thing to me, i think you could be bi or d/s and really fking boring.

        ive personally never been called that though i suppose i could see why someon'd think of me that way. and as a matter of fact i dont like the term because, acutally, i do totally dislike vanilla. : P sickeningly sweet, it is. i suppose id be ok with "pure chocolate" :D
        • its funny, part of the complaints seem to be on the PC level, something I hate PC that is. The other complaint seems to be, everyone saying that they arent vanilla so how dare someone label them that way. I think this is equally funny really since what is vanilla? What is kinky? Someone I talked to at work thought that handcuffs were incredibly pervy and kinky, I thought they were so mainstream that they were ultimate in vanilla now days. Vanilla to kinky is a spectrum and depending on where you stand and the person you are describing stands it will mean something different. There are friends who i am more vanilla than and definitely people who i know who I am more kinky than, its simply a descriptive term for a scale, certainly nothing to get ones panties in a bunch over, in my opinion.
          • "everyone saying that they arent vanilla so how dare someone label them that way."

            Very true!

            I think you've highlighted the whole problem with using the term "vanilla" rather well. The term is *perceived* as a descriptor which MOST folks don't wish to associate with themselves and therefore don't want others using it to describe them either. It is true - it's just a label like any other label and completely subjective as far as what on earth it means in any definitive way but the fact remains - most (not all) people like to think they're anything BUT "vanilla" with reference to their sexuality.

            Whether or not there is ill intent when using it - the person being described as vanilla rarely appreciates it and rarely does anyone boast of being sexually vanilla.

            • good point, *B*. I do not advocate being PC because that's just another way of stifling conversation and opinion. I just think we don't consider connotation enough when we do talk and particularly when we label.

              BTW, I never said I was personally offended by the word, I just think it's condescending but that doesn't mean others do not.
            • B

              Mon, May 5, 2008 - 6:08 AM
              I will personally stand up right now and be the exception. Some of my favorite sex is strait vanilla. I could never have a long-term partnership with anybody who could never have strictly vanilla sex. I could, however, have a long-term relationship with an almost totally vanilla partner so long as they were willing for me to get my kink needs met elsewhere. If there is NO vanilla in your sex then I must admit that I worry for you. If a person can never just enjoy the touch and wonder of another body without attachments, well, that's clinical fetishism and it usually is not a happy thing for the fetishist or their partners.
              My favorite position is Missionary.

              But, I get it, a lot of folks don't like the term. I don't claim to really understand it but I also don't want to piss anybody off so I use the word carefully though it irks me to do so. When I'm with the kink community we can happily chat away about vanilla and kink and how much of what we like, but when I'm with folks outside of the kink community I may describe activities as vanilla but generally not people unless I know them fairly well or truly do not care what they make of my words. Just as I shy away from using any but the most clinical of descriptor for race until I know how sensitive a person is about it. Just as I try to be PC towards the queer community (though in DC I'd get slapped for calling somebody queer while here I get slapped for using the clinical term homosexual). Just as I try to be careful how I refer to people with differing levels of physical, mental, and emotional functionality.
              But some days a part of me is furious because I feel like I can't acknowledge the differences between people! We aren't homogeneous! I don't want us to be! Some folks aren't the same color, aren't the same height, don't have the same number of limbs, sleep with different genders, are different sexes, and like to fuck in different ways! We've let our hangups and our insecurities choke us until it is never safe to discuss how we are different from each other! I'd love the day when absofuckinglutely nobody saw anything wrong with words like "nigger" and "fagot," because the day NOBODY sees anything wrong with them is the first day that we can say we have truly gotten over homophobia and racism. When those words stop being ugly because there is nothing ugly to what they describe and we can't imagine how there could be then they will just be words and we will all know better than to give a damn about them.
              • Re: B

                Mon, May 5, 2008 - 8:41 AM
                I can understand to an extent you frustration, but I have no problem pointing out differences without the use of controversial words. I envy that you have no visceral reaction to such words, and I'm sure most people would. Obviously, 'vanilla' is not on the extreme scale of insults but I doubt humankind will ever get to a place when words are not used to destroy and demean.

                I have thought about what you said in regards to these words and insecurities. If i could make an analogy, I do not get offended when someone calls me a nigger because I think I am one. It offends me because of what it symbolizes and the history attached to it. I can't honestly say that the word 'vanilla' isn't someone connected to that same connotation for me because of the way I have always heard it used, particularly as an insult to whites from blacks. It's no mystery that the stereotype of 'whiteness' is totally out of vogue and the attachment of a person to that is an insult.
                • Re: B

                  Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:14 PM
                  Yeah, I got called "vanilla" a lot in DC because I was very very pale in a mostly-very-not-pale school. The word itself never really bothered me, although I was self-conscious about being white. They could have been using any word, and they did use many other words, but it wasn't the words that upset me. They could have been calling me any word you can think of, no matter how sweet, it is the way they say it that makes it insulting. I have never understood asking people to use a different word for things they don't respect, like changing the title from janitor to maintenance specialist. If you don't respect janitors you won't respect maintenance specialists either. If you do respect janitors then why are we changing the name?
        • Rt

          Mon, May 5, 2008 - 5:53 AM
          Is monogamous and strait vanilla? Yes, for most people.
          Is BDSM kinky? Yes, for most people.
          What's the conflict? I know almost nobody who is completely vanilla or completely kinky. I don't think vanilla means not willing to explore, that's a prude, but rather not interested in whatever kink is being discussed or somebody who mostly likes romantic heterosexual lovemaking.

          And yes, you can be a bisexual BDSM leather slut from hell and still be incredibly boring and prudish.

          If you think vanilla is sickeningly sweet you should try some REAL vanilla. Most people sweeten it way too much but vanilla beans by themselves, like pure cacao, isn't really very sweet at all. I've had some fanfuckingtastic creamy semi-sweet vanilla ice-cream that rolled my eyes back in my head.
          • Re: Rt

            Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:03 AM
            ok i'll try it cause well you gotta try everything once, right? : )

            and yeah my conclusion form all this is that different people mean different things when they say vanilla or kinky - and it wont be the first time i dont fit someone's description of what im supposed to be. meh. its irrelevant, really.
          • Re: Rt

            Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:10 AM
            and to clarify:

            "I don't think vanilla means not willing to explore, that's a prude, but rather not interested in whatever kink is being discussed or somebody who mostly likes romantic heterosexual lovemaking. "

            i think "romantic heterosexual lovemaking" is a wider spectrum to me than it may be to other people. you could be a needleplay queen who can make a grown man cry with pleasure or a bdsm submission bitch of the highest order - and still be within the spectrum of "romantic heretosexual lovemaking." or you could be bi and poly and not into said needleplay - and thus fit the "not interested in whatever kink is being discussed". its fluid and frankly, the term doesnt really define anything for me.
            • Re: Rt

              Tue, May 6, 2008 - 6:36 AM
              Hmmm, I think I meant lovemaking as in non-aggressive and emotionally charged intercourse, not simply any intimate erotic exchange between two folks. And, yes, if I'm with a bunch of needle play folks then I'm the vanilla chicken with a needle phobia. I'm generally not kinky enough for hardcore kinksters nor vanilla enough for more classically romantic individuals but which one I am lets me know which crowd I'm running with. I think a great many descriptors work this way but in my head the litmus test is "Can I talk about it with my grandmother?"
              What can I say, when they make fenceposts with such suggestive finials it makes a girl want to sit on them.
  • vanilla and breeder are not like gay and bi -- gay and bi are generally accepted words that describe someone's sexual orientation, and do not have judgmental connotations (though they're not as descriptive as they could be, since there are many nuances within those descriptors).

    vanilla is not inherently offensive to me... it means not kinky... so if someone is describing one of their lovers as vanilla in their sexual tastes, because they actually know the person, i'm fine with it... but if somebody whose entire sexual vocabulary is defined by some particular kink, and they use the word vanilla to describe those "others" as not being like them just because they don't wear leather collars or walk around naked at folsom street fair or whip their partners, that is judgmental and well, just ignorant.

    and you use the word breeder to mean straight, simon? breeder is a word that was created by the gay community to demean straight people. it was created to be offensive, and it is offensive when it is used. in addition, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with sex. there are many gay parents, and many straight childless people. it is a word that i have never heard used with any respect whatsoever.

    that's the gist of what makes a word offensive, if its intention when used is to be judgmental, and whether or not it is used with respect.

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