From the title of a book chapter available online at www.saundradickinson.com/artic...12.pdf
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:54 AMWow, thanks! Something I could use right now......
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 8:08 AMNever, never ever enter into a relationship thinking you are going to change or save your partner. If you want or need change it must come from within. You must love everyting about your partner including ther flaws, and we are all flawed. You may change for your partner out of love, and they amy change for you. Don't count on it.
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:00 PMOne reason we get into relationship is to realize stuff. So if no one got into a relationship while thinking they could change, we would not know that that is hard if not impossible.
Love everything is a process. Are two 18 years olds , for instance going to love everything about each other?
Why not get into the relationship that seem right at the moment? And then work out whatever needs to be worked out while in them.
I can't believe there is a must that exists about relationships. Sometimes we get into things to find these things out. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:32 PMSparky, l'm with you all the way.
Aschleigh: "Why not get into the relationship that seem right at the moment? And then work out whatever needs to be worked out while in them."
Because there's an overwhelming number of actual statistics that say this doesn't work. 'Mr. Right' is not the Same Guy as 'Mr. Right Now'. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:37 PMMy perspective is that anything that helps us learn and grow Works on some level. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 5:06 PMMy perspective is that anything that helps us learn and grow Works on some level.
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And my perspective doesn't dispute that. l'm simply saying some real thought should be put into who we're choosing and whether or not we're learning and moving forward in the relationship, or if we're simply treading old waters.
l agree with the part of the article that says that too many give up once they hit the power struggle, and l can't say l blame them, but l do think it's too bad if one isn't willing to do the work to move through that stage. Nobody wants a power struggle, but they happen. However, if we're just taking what is right for us at that time (even if it's not necessarily healthy, or doesn't get our fires of passion broiling in the way we might like), then l think it's wise to consider how far we're going to take something, and how much that really does mean to us before we make the commitment to work through it. Otherwise, if we figure out halfway through what was just right at that time that actually, it ain't right at all, we're responsible for two hearts, not one.
A relationship shouldn't be taken lightly; sure, it's always going to be a learning experience that helps us grow, as long as we don't go in expecting someone to teach us something we can't learn on our own. Which is why l don't get into relationships to learn stuff. l may learn stuff along the way, but that's not my motivation. My motivation is to pursue a commitment to a person that nourishes and supports them, and l will learn some lessons from that commitment because all relationships have learning curves. But to place expectations on some illusory type of learning or change within a relationship is setting it up to fail, and may be placing more on a partner's shoulders than they're equipped to handle. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 5:18 PMIf certain things could be learned on our own, we would not have relationships. We grow in certain ways in relationship to others, we grow in certain ways on our own. Both are important. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:16 PMOf course we learn things in relationships. Every life experience should be a part of learning, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be smart and responsible about it.
I'm sure I could learn a few things from hooking, but that doesn't make it healthy or a good idea.
But it's up to you. One can learn through the pain of foolishness or one can actually seek wisdom and a more aware sense of your own role and influence. Observation is a great learning tool and you don't have to do any of the suffering yourself!
Idealism has its place, but when we have our heads in the clouds all the time, we miss the world around us and the opportunity to make real change working with what is, not what we wish. If you work with what is, it may become what you wish. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:20 PMAnd if you work with what you wish, It may become what is. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:28 PMNo, you cannot make something from nothing. Can you make a vase from thin air? No, but you can have an idea of what you want and use the earth to make the vase.
If you can make that vase, you'll be a wealthy woman, indeed.
In church, we would discuss a Christian tenet "Faith without works is nothing". You can press your hands together and pray all day for blessing, but if you don't go out and make it happen with the world as it is, you're a fool. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 6:50 PMI don't need to make a vase out of air, I could use heated up sand or glass, because that seems easier.
It takes both. I think the faith comes first for me. Sometimes you do the work and the faith gets there .
It's actually a false dichotomy. ( I always wanted to use that word) Faith/work , work/faith.
Making something from nothing is never necessary or even possible. Energy is transformed into new matter, never created nor destroyed.
It's all there already. We just decide when to make it come into fruition.
Fools create all sorts of stuff. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:05 PMI'm pretty sure you don't understand what I'm saying. Who said anything about faith and works creating a dichotomy? This is the dichotomy:
"And if you work with what you wish, It may become what is."
What you wish is immaterial and cannot be worked into something material. Your intention is the catalyst not the material itself.
A dichotomy is the opposition of two things. Obviously faith and works do not fit this definition. If you read my statement, they have to accompany one another.
I don't need a thermodynamics lesson and it's hardly relevant. Fools do create all sorts of stuff, but it usually ends up being a headache for the rest of us (i.e. Bush for two terms).
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 7:59 PMHeh.
You're all arguing the same thing, from different angles. You all agree, and disagree about that fact hahaha.
Have fun, ladies.
~ Kole
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 11:41 PMAshleigh:
Um basic premise From nothing hence comes nothing. You jumped to the existence of energy. quel asked you to make a vase from air. Expectations are like air. Changing someone to conform to your fantasy same thing. As to faith, um yeah that is air as well.
The idea that you as an individual learns from a relationship or even a discussion, that is laughable.
BTW how is that whole wishing things into fruition thing going for ya?
JSin
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 6:38 PM"No, you cannot make something from nothing. Can you make a vase from thin air? No, but you can have an idea of what you want and use the earth to make the vase."
But we're not talking about vases, we're talking about psyches, and the psyche CAN, and often does, create something from nothing.
I feel it might be useful to point out that we are likely seeking different goals. Certain individuals in this discussion are clearly seeking a life-long commitment and everything that falls short of that is considered a "failure". Others, myself included, are more comfortable taking relationships as they come to us and allowing them to pass on when they no longer suit us. A life partnership is not my goal, so relationships that don't last forevermore aren't "failures" for me. I DO enter into relationships seeking to learn. In fact, that's about the only reason I ever enter into a relationship. That means that the way I approach relationships is necessarily different from those seeking to create a stable nuclear family.
This is one of the things I despise about these little relationship manuals. They attempt to cram all relationship styles into one model; their model. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 7:56 PMThe point I was trying to make was that you can't just have an idea or something in your psyche and expect that, by itself to do the job. You have to also put your body in motion and use the appropriate materials. Neither can work without the other. I was trying to make it simple by using an analogy since nothing else seems to break though. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 8:19 PMTo expand outside of the idea+ action =vase analogy. I do realize perspectives can change and inner transformation can occur, but Asch was talking about entering relationships with the specific goal of working out one's problems despite how the partner might be affected by it. I was commenting that this pie in the sky approach was ill-conceived and does not produce the desired results.
I wasn't trying to get into a debate about the nature of psychological transformation although I'm sure that would be terribly stimulating and you would rock in a thread of such nature, Myriad.
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Quel
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 8:35 PMI'm sorry but I must disagree. When dealing with relationships sometimes holding the idea IS enough. Thoughts change our perception, which changes how we respond to stimuli. How we view our partners may very well be as important as how we treat our partners. What we think of as the "perfect relationship", as a simple concept, can have a profound impact upon our relationships. If we were talking about being a cupboard I'd be with you, but when we're talking about interpersonal relationships then ideology can be very important.
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 2:25 PMThis is one of the things I despise about these little relationship manuals. They attempt to cram all relationship styles into one model; their model.
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lt's not the model itself that's to blame for the most part. lt's the wording.
Just sayin.
Ali, who's writing a little manual of her own.... -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 2:36 PMI don't believe failure and relationship should ever be used together. I have some spefic goals for my relationships, but I have not failed if they were not obtained. I learned something each time, that's success. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 2:38 PMSome people's pie is the sky is other people's reality. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 3:21 PMSome people's pie is the sky is other people's reality.
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"Pie in the sky" is an expression dealing with an unlikely or unrealistic situation. Generally, then, that means some people are down with *actual* reality, and some are not. Don't confuse the two. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 8:16 PMNo it was a long time ago, someone said that there were failed relationship. I don't think there are. Unless someone feels like they failed, which is valid from there perspective. I don't believe ended relationships are failures.
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 5:53 PMI don't think there are. Unless someone feels like they failed, which is valid from there perspective. I don't believe ended relationships are failures.
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l completely agree.
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 3:19 PMI don't believe failure and relationship should ever be used together.
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ls this in response to me?
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 11:43 PMAshleigh wrote:
"And if you work with what you wish, It may become what is."
And you can shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills first.
JSin
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 8:23 AM"If certain things could be learned on our own, we would not have relationships."
Quel: "But it's up to you. One can learn through the pain of foolishness or one can actually seek wisdom and a more aware sense of your own role and influence. Observation is a great learning tool and you don't have to do any of the suffering yourself!"
Bingo. Sometimes these things are more beneficial in cultivating a relationship if you've taken the time to absorb and understand the lessons on your own. Not to mention that you might very well be saving someone else the pain in doing so. l dare say l learned far more about how l do or should function when l was single and working on my own issues and baggage than when l was in any of my relationships. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 10:03 AMI do think we are agree about most things. Things to be learned on our own and things to be learned in a relationship.
I have wished/worked into fruition a whole life. They may seem small, but they mean a lot to me.
Moving to california. I visited cali when I was 9 and said that's where I want to live when I grow up. 14 years later I am got here.
An apartment near the beach. Again I visited a friend who had a place on the ocean in playa del rey like 6 months ago and thought, when I move I want a place in playa del rey. Now I have my place here.
Going back to school, the end of my depression, better relationships ( not the one quite yet but they keep getting better) etc, etc, etc..
Even the smallest thing people will say can't be done. I visited England when I was 16 and I told a friend that I was going on the England trip when I was a junior in high school and she didn't believe me. And these are small practical stuff for me, so I know it can be done.
Anything can be done. I don't listen to closely to the naysayers any more.
Pretty much anything I have done has started with a wish. And then some work.
I have learned much from the pain of foolishness. I don't regret it at all. And we can seek wisdom and become more aware. We can do both.
In the interest of harmony. Maybe we could practice supporting each other in whatever we wish to do. I am wishing for myself great relationships and a place even closer to the ocean and a thriving psychology business. None of this would ever take away from anything you want Jsin. Whatever it is you wish for, can come true ( with work and comittment and awareness , the whole 9 yards ) That's all I am saying. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 10:25 AMI'm certainly not being a naysayer. I would never tell anyone they can't achieve things, I persevere through incredible hardships and seemingly impossible odds myself. I think the difference is all practical application and always centers around relationships. I think we just have very different ideas about what all of that entails. I applaud your accomplishments and your wants are not inherently bad, it just seems at times that you may be chasing your own tail and that's hard for a person of action, like myself not to comment on. Really, that's not even all that frustrating. I just feel sometimes that people give you sage advice repeatedly and you dismiss it out of hand as if listening to them requires that you give up your dream. There are some very insightful people in this and other tribes and I have been glad to hear what they say, even through their sometimes curt way of expressing it.
Your studies are important, but the danger in some of the fields that focus on human behavior is that they become so insular to the point where it brainwashes people the same way religion does. Often times scholars are as entrenched as religious fanatics and they would crush those who propose that maybe God really is dead.
Bleh, I'm getting too verbose and digressing... -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 6:08 PMI wouldn't still be on here unless I was interested in what people say.
I will take what's useful and throw away the rest.
I can hear that I am chasing my own tale, but it's not true. But I moved locations, which I needed to do, I am now in my 3rd quarter of school. It's all going forward. Maybe the internet itself has many limitations , I don't actually describe my life here much.
And best of all, I am happy being single right now. I know if I had a relationship right now it would not be the one I am meant to be in.
But I could be a person of thought more than action. Who knows? I'm making it up as I go along.
Indeed, loving , healthy relationships, conscious parenting, and a helping career are not inherently bad at all. Some might even see these as good goals to have. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 6:59 PMI'm reading a different book that the post , Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. It says almost the same thing.
Basically intimacy brings up a whole lots of things to the self. Feelings of vulnerability, past anger, sadness, etc.. Because intimacy is first learned with the mother, intimacy will bring up mother memories/issues like noting else.
We react will all sorts of ways to avoid the implications this will have in our lives if we let it. We can consciously do some things or let the unconscious play out as it will.
Here is a tiny snipit, I don't know if it makes sense out of context.
" Actually Carol was TOO GOOD for Warren's comfort. Warren thought he'd feel safe with Carol, the opposite occured, he felt endangered by his very love for her. His fear of losing her grew the more he enjoyed being with her. He feared she would manipulate him with his desrie for her... or withhold herself from him... or worse-she'd die"
This is a couple who have come into counseling with David Schnarch.
I think like Quel actually said many people belieive that the need for counseling means that they should break up. But it's not true. It means that things are coming up in a normal relationship that intimacy is supposed to invoke. Intimacy is not safe, it is a place for growth and safe places are not always the best for growing. Having someone very important to us , scares some of us. It Means something. A lot of people keep a very low meaning threshold in their lives. To avoid pain in case the thing with very much meaning leaves or dies .
The higher the meaning the relationship is, the worse it will be when it is over. The closer the intimacy the more likely the pain. And none of it is wrong, just an opportunity to grow or stay the same.
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 6:32 PM"'Mr. Right' is not the Same Guy as 'Mr. Right Now'.
Be that as it may, it is also true that Mr Right isn't always right for us right now -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 2:23 PMBe that as it may, it is also true that Mr Right isn't always right for us right now
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l never said anything to the contrary. Doesn't change the point l was makin. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 4:24 PMWell, I can't speek to the point you were making, because I may have missed it, but believing that what we need and/or want ISN'T always "Mr Right" changes how I view this conversation. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Wed, July 16, 2008 - 5:56 PMWell, I can't speek to the point you were making, because I may have missed it, but believing that what we need and/or want ISN'T always "Mr Right" changes how I view this conversation.
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l agree and understand where you're coming from. My point was that "Mr. Right" has a feeling of permanence, and "Mr. Right Now" does not. l wasn't making a point about what each provides, only that taking care with Mr. Right Now's heart is worthy of consideration, especially if he is Mr. Right Now. -
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Re: Your Partner is as Emotionally Healthy as You Can Tolerate (x-post to AASWA)
Fri, July 18, 2008 - 10:20 PMAh, agreed. It is always of utmost importance to care for the hearts in our charge.
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Health and Wellness
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 7:16 PMBecause I'm not smart or patient enough to understand the various levels of threading across both groups, I will just make an observation here in hopes that it somehow fits into some conversation somewhere: I think that people seek help for a variety of reasons.
Sometimes we seek help because we are in pain, sometimes to feel better and sometimes to be better. Take dentistry or massage, for example. Many people may perceive these as preventative care, and only see a dentist when they have a toothache. Someone who is in physical therapy may do exercises for a very different reason than an athlete who is training for a specific task. When an elite athlete takes ice baths and gets sport massage, I assure you it is not for pleasure, but to heal more quickly so that one can train harder and withstand greater pain in the quest for better performance. Professional actors and broadcast media people are looking for something very different than most people when they get their hair cut or ask for a dental referral.
In the great quest to decide what is right for you, I suspect that your vote is the one that matters most, and anyone is entitled to learn and change over time. -
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Re: Health and Wellness
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 12:54 AMPeople are entitled to not learn and not grow over time too. Most people take that entitlement very seriously.
It often takes the pain of a rotting tooth or a rotting marriage to push people into the dentist/counselors seat.
Or that not growing outweighs the pain of growing.
Each to their own. I like to avoid emergency dentistry , the way I will want to avoid divorce. I like prevention. It saves money in the long run too.
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