Maybe its me. Maybe it is the bay area of CA. Not sure, but started thinking about this today when one of my friends posted on her blog that she had proposed to her transgendered girlfriend and they were getting married. Now don't get me wrong, I wish them both all the best & think its wonderful however at the same time it did strike me as a very vanilla thing to do and therefore odd. Is marriage something that you consider for yourself? Do you feel the need or desire for a piece of paper from the state? A blessing from an organized religion?
Isn't a committment a comittment? If you commit to your partner does it really matter whether you do it alone with him or her, or if you do it with a priest, a judge or what have you? What do you think?
Isn't a committment a comittment? If you commit to your partner does it really matter whether you do it alone with him or her, or if you do it with a priest, a judge or what have you? What do you think?
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SF Bay Area
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:47 PMMarriage is alive and well all over the US. SF, LA New York city , big cities may be different. But lots of being get married every day in the middle of the country and even portland, seattle, etc..
Marriage can be about making public two people's love and comittment to each other, not a piece of paper from the state or organized religion.
I think marriage is changing as gender roles change and society changes, but it's not going away. The definition may be expanding though.
A commitment and marriage are not the same thing. Marriage is a legally binding agreement. Commitment is not. There can be marriage without comittment and commitment without marriage. I want both.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:57 PMI view marriage as a legal and financial contract, as well as an emotional bonding; the religious part is irrelevant to me, as it is to most of my family. I can only speak from personal experience; I would still be married if my husband were still alive. Having had my long-term relationship, I make no predictions about my future. As to friends, many are still married, and some just got married.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:14 AMAlong with the above comments, there's also all the legal benefits of being married, the whole hospital visit things, getting loans and mortgages.. it can make life a lot easier for two people who are going to be together for a long time anyway. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:53 AMI certainly recognize that there are legal benefits still to marriage though I would suspect if long time partners were getting married just for those reasons they might not announce it or make a big deal of it. You announce you are getting married because its important to you not because you are going to be gaining legal benefits, right? -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:26 PMTrue, *shrug* I guess it's just how they are then ^^
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 4:39 PM"Is marriage something that you consider for yourself?"
Not enough benefits.
"Do you feel the need or desire for a piece of paper from the state?"
Yes, and many of them and green, please. :)
"A blessing from an organized religion? "
That backfires too much.
"Isn't a committment a comittment?"
... A is A, I thought?
"If you commit to your partner does it really matter whether you do it alone with him or her, or if you do it with a priest, a judge or what have you?"
It can, and often does. And many times not. It's up to them. :)
~ Kole
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 6:06 PMI know there are people that do it as an expression of their love & commitment with the other person, but to me it's an overly social construct.
It had some very negative consequences for me so unless there was some really compelling reason I doubt I would ever do it again. I am much more comfortable letting someone in to my life, my heart, and my home without a legally binding contract. Some of that has to do with my kids, but I think more of it has to do with me and how much I value my independence. I am my own person - not Mrs. "fill-in-the-blank". I live in a state that recognizes domestic partnerships, so I can add my sweetie to my insurance, buy a house with him, and list him as "significant other" on important things without a piece of paper from the state. I think a greater commitment is staying together without the "legal status" because you want to - because you want to be with each other and choose to stay together day after day; year after year.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 6:24 PMI have turbulent views on marriage. Our country chose to make the religious ceremony of marriage a legal contract without opening it up to any pair or group of people who wish to enter into that contract. I, personally, believe that marriage should either be given back to the churches as a contract between the married couple and their god or it should be made a legally binding agreement like any other and be available to all who wish to seek it. So that is where a large portion of my moral aversion to marriage comes from and that is why I refuse to participate in the legal form of American marriage. Too many states still prosecute "crimes" like adultery. As a polyamorous individual I flatly refuse to sign any contract which raises one of my partners permanently above all others.
On a more personal note I don't think it's any of Uncle Sam's business who I take as a life-partner. It is between me, them, my gods, and my community. The federal government simply has no need nor right to such information. If I wish to merge finances with an individual there are contracts to allow for that. If I wish to merge households we can do so. If I wish to give them power of attourney over me that can be done. Marriage is a way for the government to track who is breeding with who and is a leftover from an archaic system of property inheretence.
I have had a husband. We were married before our community in a ceremony that could have been legally binding had we but signed the piece of paper the priest had with him. We declined. We didn't get married for legal reasons. I did wish when he died that we had gotten around to making our wills for eachother like we had planned, but he was only 25 and we hadn't thought it a pressing concern. I may enter other handfastings (marriages) in the future, but I will never sign a legal "marriage" document.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:46 AMi think marriage, like most things in life, is what you make of it. how you do it is a matter of how you want to celebrate it. some people like to whisper their love to each other, others want to shout it from the rooftops for the world to hear. some people want both : )
and a commitment is most certainly a commitment. though i guess it depends on who you are seeking to gain recognition from, and for what purposes.
ive always thought marriage was just another unique way - or opportunity - to express what you felt. whether that was legally binding, or traditionally / religiously so. or not. that you do it when you really dont have to.
im married because i just cant say no to that man : ) but also because i want to spend the rest of my life with him. fucking him, really.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:59 PMPart of my raising.... I felt that if you loved someone, then you should (want to) marry them.
I also felt that if you loved that person, you should stay married even if it wasn't working anymore.
The good news is: I have been released from the belief in the latter,
but going hand in hand with that of course, is that I no longer necessarily believe solely in the former. Rather, I am content and accepting of many other options. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:28 PM2 things :
As a former little girl I know I have been inundated with images of brides and wedding since I can remember. What other day do we have that brings your whole family and lots of friends together for us? I've been trying to get my aunt and uncle to get out to LA for years and I know that they would come for my wedding if nothing else. It's a big day in a women's life. It's one of those days that mark time in a big way.
Also to me Commitment is love. There are lots of ways to love, love is feelings and temporal. Love ( the action ) is the commitment to stick around and work things through even when the feelings of love aren't there. ( it's the best book I've ever read on relationships: Getting the love you want by Harville Hendrix ) . Hendrix basically says that we need commitment to work through the issues and wounds of our childhood. So I think commitment is good for us. And if we are comitted why not not have the marriage part?
It's like my comitment to school makes me a better student. I don't go when I want to and do the homework I feel like doing. I go to every class and do all the homework. I don't only talk my mom when she's being nice, I talk to her when she needs to talk.
Comitments show us who we are and what our values and priorities are. Someone mentioned independence. I value interdependence over independence. I won't give up me, I will enter into a relationship where we are greater than the sum of our parts. I value my children's legal access to both parents. ( my parents weren't married, my dad moved away and didn't pay child support until he had a job with the state and they garnished his wages. )
I also have learned from the marriage around me that I want to create a marriage and then have the wedding as the icing on the cake . Not get married to create the cake. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:56 AM"As a former little girl I know I have been inundated with images of brides and wedding since I can remember. What other day do we have that brings your whole family and lots of friends together for us? I've been trying to get my aunt and uncle to get out to LA for years and I know that they would come for my wedding if nothing else. It's a big day in a women's life. It's one of those days that mark time in a big way."
yeah i have to say, i cant relate to that experience at all. i never really idolized weddings growing up, its an utterly foreign concept to me. if they meant anything it was about the communication of love between two people - which, btw, i do believe means something when shared in front of a community. it gives power and weight to the commitment, imo, but that part doesnt have anything to do with legally binding papers.
"And if we are comitted why not not have the marriage part? "
i think if you both think about marriage the same way, that works. but for many people they dont need the marriage part for the commitment to work - and that works, too.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 12:50 AM"Now don't get me wrong, I wish them both all the best & think its wonderful however at the same time it did strike me as a very vanilla thing to do and therefore odd."
Simon, at the risk of raising definition questions, im not sure how you make that leap to vanilla. i know married people who are bdsm, gay, bi, poly, etc. dont you? -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 2:43 AMI know some married couples who are gay, poly, bi, BDSM, etc, but for some reason I'm with Simon: it seems like a really Vanilla thing to do. I think of marriage as a Christian ritual and something that most folks do for social recognition and acceptance of themselves as a couple. *shrug* It puts me in mind of white picket fences in the suburbs with two cars in the driveway, a dog in the yard, and a kid on the way. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 6:00 AM<<Simon, at the risk of raising definition questions, im not sure how you make that leap to vanilla. i know married people who are bdsm, gay, bi, poly, etc. dont you?>>
Actually no, I don't know any married people who are into bdsm, gay, bi, or poly. I know poly people who are into all of those areas and more but not married folks. Matter of fact I think I can count the number of married people I know on one hand. Like Myriad said, marriage puts me in mind of the midwest, white picket fence, sex on Sunday in one position. I know that not all marriages are like that obviously but my experience with marriage and that of my friends over the years has always proven to be vanilla & leaving a LOT to be desired in the sexual arena. That is by no means a scientific sampling though ;) -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 5:41 PM"Like Myriad said, marriage puts me in mind of the midwest, white picket fence, sex on Sunday in one position. I know that not all marriages are like that obviously but my experience with marriage and that of my friends over the years has always proven to be vanilla & leaving a LOT to be desired in the sexual arena. That is by no means a scientific sampling though ;)"
im not quite midwest or white picket fense, and as for the sex, yeah um, id like to propose im livin proof otherwise. ;P -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 11:05 PMmeh. i'm from the midwest. never had a white picket fence, or any kind of fense. sex was never relegated to sundays, nor was it kept to one position. i thought people on the weat coast were s'posed to be all open-minded & stuff. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:44 AMright? : )
i bet there are fences and sunday sex (only) everywhere in the world. sadly.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 5:42 PM"Actually no, I don't know any married people who are into bdsm, gay, bi, or poly. "
wow im kind of surprised, esp since you're in the bay area. you too damn vanilla. :D -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 9:03 PM<<Actually no, I don't know any married people who are into bdsm, gay, bi, or poly. "
wow im kind of surprised, esp since you're in the bay area. you too damn vanilla. :D>>
I didnt say I didnt know any bi, gay, poly or BDSM folks just none that are married ;) -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 11:38 AMi'm surprised that you don't know any married people who are gay, bi, poly or into bdsm , simon. they're out there. they just must not go where you go.i know a number of gay, bi and poly folks who are married in the bay area.... (though obviously the gay folks are not legally married since our society doesn't allow that)... i know probably ten or twenty solid couples at least, perhaps more. mostly, though, they have their own social circles, and you wouldn't catch them dead at the citadel or some public play party.... but just because you don't see them where you are doesn't mean they don't exist.
marriage is a very personal choice, because it means entangling your property and legal commitments with someone else. i got married to someone i'd been living with for several years because we wanted children, and felt that being legally married was better for the child. i still believe that. it was never about fantasy weddings or playing dress-up as a bride, and was always about the legal partnership.
my own daughter has been with her partner for 12 years, and they have been engaged for 3-1/2 years now, with no urgency for marriage until they are ready to have a baby, and then they'll get married. no expensive dress, no bullshit family wedding stress, they'll just get married.
but if they wanted to have a large gathering for all of their friends and family, i'd support that as well... a wedding is a ritual, and people should create the ritual that holds meaning for them. but no one should never ever confuse a wedding with a marriage... these are entirely different things. more attention to the partnership, and less attention to the party, is a good thing.
and i know many couples who have very solid marriages that define what marriage can really be. marriage is indeed alive and well, it's just that it's now also acceptable to be single or live in alternative ways, and that's a great thing.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 6:13 AMTsk. My married life had sex on Sundays, but we had sex every other day too! Of course, we WERE in the Midwest and we actually DID have a white picket fence..... and a dog...... but only one car and no kids (unless you count a fantastically immature roommate)
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 7:59 AM"I know some married couples who are gay, poly, bi, BDSM, etc, but for some reason I'm with Simon: it seems like a really Vanilla thing to do. I think of marriage as a Christian ritual and something that most folks do for social recognition and acceptance of themselves as a couple."
We do live in a society where religion has monopolized the social importance and purpose of marriage to a large degree. I wish this country was more like France where you have two ceremonies, the first by the state and the second (optional) by the church, because in the end all the privileges and burdens of marriage are civil not religious. There's also a lot of pressure to "settle down", do the "responsible thing," and become more stable. More than one married friend of mine has indicated a heightened sense of approval by their bosses and families after getting married...and vice versa after their divorce. Fucked up and probably illegal, but there you have it.
All that said, I think marriage is what you make of it. For some it's a big deal, for others a quiet ceremony to get tax benefits and have a great party with friends and family. For me a commitment is a commitment, regardless of the paper. That said, I was moved by someone who said that having that piece of paper and public vows before your intimates is a public statement that you're promising to work things out.
As for marriage being vanilla, I would have to disagree. I know a number of marriages that are poly/swing, involve bdsm, or some other level of kink. Just make sure the ground rules are set going in...or at least open for negotiation later.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 8:53 AMThis thread has revealed some interesting perceptions of what is acceptable when you consider yourself to be living outside the norm in relationships.
My first thought upon reading is that marriage predates Christianity, so it's not inherently Christian. There's no reason to feel bound by such limited perspective. This also begs the question of what one thinks marriage is. I don't think of it in an institutionalized fashion, though it's been institutionalized. That's like a clockwork orange to me.
I also don't see marriage as being 'vanilla' per se, actually I think that whole terminology is a bit condescending in general. I can't see why opening up and being vulnerable in such a risky way would be considered 'vanilla'. There are few more dangerous things than to let someone in your heart and soul in such an intimate way.
For me, the difference between marriage and commitment is fundamental. Commitment is in the action, marriage is a union of essences. I see no reason to limit marriage to hetero couples or to just two people. Marriage is nothing if not deeply personal and the social benefits should not be subject to popular morality. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 10:44 AMyeah "vanilla" is pretty judgmental. It always interests me when certain kinds of people are judgemental. Like gay people being racist or women who are sexist . ( of course we all have judgements )
The more "out there" my life gets. ( it's not very out there ), just concepts and different experiences I never dreamed of having living in suburban michigan and Iowa, the more I appriciate some traditions, quaint, "vanilla" life things. It's what we make of it.
It's like the people who are the " I never watch tv" types. Watching Sienfeld with my mom on the couch growing up are some of my favorite memories. There are some good sacred experiences that are quite traditional and "quaint".
And opening up to intiamcy witnin a life long comittment is one of the most sacred, beautiful things I think exists. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 11:43 AMInteresting, perhaps I need to start a new thread on this but I never considered Vanilla judgmental, it is descriptive of a lifestyle or preferences. It is neither good nor bad, it is not for me at least 100% of the time but then again I am not out there waving the freak flag 100% of the time either ;) -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 4:52 PMVanilla means not kinky and, I'm so sorry if it offends you, but marriage isn't kinky. Regardless of what connotations you choose to read into the word "vanilla" the modern American expression of marriage fits the bill. It is a normalized practice which is accepted and encouraged by the dominant culture. You can MAKE marriage kinky, sure, but the act of getting legally married isn't. If it's not kinky then it's vanilla because each condition is rather defined by the presence or absence of the other. Sure, some things ride in the grey area, but I can't think of marriage as being one of them.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 5:45 PM"I think of marriage as a Christian ritual and something that most folks do for social recognition and acceptance of themselves as a couple."
yeah, see i dont have that baggage, it doesnt mean any of that to me.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 1:29 PM...and here is an "artifact" of the Social Security rules...if two seniors (over 65+) get married, the wife (usually) will lose her SS payment. I have known several couples who financial reasons simply cannot marry, so they just live together. This will pretty much be my case. So I think I will forego the legal stuff, if there is a next time. I am discovering there is a different set of "rules" for those ~50 and above... -
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Kinene
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 4:55 PMThat is horrid. Who in hell had the bright idea that when seniors married the wife no longer needs money for food and medications? Ye gods, there are SO many little discriminatory addendum that have gotten tagged onto marriage. It makes me cranky as hell.
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sun, May 4, 2008 - 6:27 PMIs marriage something that you consider for yourself?
Yes, I am married and have been for 11.5 years. I enjoy being married.
Since this is my 2nd marriage I doubt that I would go there again should
something happened to this one. But I think the public commitment to
one another, and the financial perks, plus raising our children together
make it worth it for me. My older kids would have had a huge issue had
I chose to live with my guy instead of getting married. They have very strong
feelings about certain things, and marriage is one of them. I didn't do that
to me though, my parents did. lol
Do you feel the need for a piece of paper from the state?
I did feel that need only because I knew that if we were going to have a
child together (and he wanted to) that I wanted us to be fully and completely
committed to one another. We could have done a public commitment
ceremony, but that doesn't bring with it the financial perks. Plus I needed
to be married to him to get his medical benefits. It just made sense to get
married, and it's worked out well for us.
I personally don't feel like it's necessary to get married in a church. It's just a
ceremony that facilitates a piece of paper. To me it's the public speaking of
vows, and the very personal feelings expressed in front of your families and
friends that really mean something. I think to really make a "go" of a relationship
you have to commit to it, and a public ceremony seems to be a good way of
starting down the road of a lifelong relationship. I'm sure it's not for everyone.
And I believe every person has the right to make this kind of decision for
themselves.
Just my opinion -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Mon, May 5, 2008 - 6:17 AMSee, and for me I wanted a public commitment ceremony but had NO desire for the legal paperwork! Technically I was handfasted and the state we were living in would not have considered us married (though Oregon would) and though I committed to him for the long haul no financial obligations could make me open myself up to a state prosecuted charge of adultery!
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:21 AMI don't know about 08, but some years ago I remember thinking that marriage was basically *over* with my generation, but then somewhere in their 30's, all of a sudden within a few years, just about all my friends got married. Most of them were in very long term relationships already, and the marriages were probably mostly due to some baby-havin behaviors they wanted to engage in. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 12:57 PMyeah, when I engage in lots of baby making behavior I start thinking about marriage too.
There's some good reasons society has said, marriage first, kids later. ( it ends up working out better for the majority of kids and mothers) -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 6:14 AMIt is odd but now that my friends and I are in our 40's they are all getting married. I have on set of friends that will never get married but everyone else (but me) has. It is depressing on a Friday night now not to have any single girlfriends to hang out with! Now in a very Vanilla way they have to check in with their "other" to see if they can go out for a night and usually they find reasons that they can't. Have never understood why that happens. I am feeling this past year that I am not made for only one person relationships and am exploring an open kind of poly relationship and having the most fun of my life. So unless this shifts dramatically or I meet someone that totally blows me away and wants/needs marriage in a way that I feel I could live with I may just end up forever single and loving it! Of course there are no children involved and for me that might change how I look at things but at my age I have kind of released that picture of my life........sigh. -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 1:00 PM"Now in a very Vanilla way they have to check in with their "other" to see if they can go out for a night and usually they find reasons that they can't."
huh i didnt realize checking in with your partner about plans was Vanilla. i dont equate that with seeking permission, but then again this is chocolate speaking. : ) -
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Re: Marriage: Alive & Well in 2008?
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 3:49 PMIn a general sort of way " Times are a changing". A lot of concepts that we've had forever are slowly being transformed into the 21st century.
Marriage is a big one. Marriage used to mean one thing and now it means a murriad of things.
It's like life itself, moving from simple to complex .
I think it's considerate to check in with one's signifigant other, But I haven't asked if I could go out since I was home with my mom.
And I am pretty vanilla .
It's generational too. I'm a younger generation X person. Almost generation Y.
I want the best parts of marriage, the public ceremony, the comittment, etc.. Without the worst parts, the feelings of being trapped, the lack of freedom. I can tweak my marriage anyway I want ( and they way we want ). If it works for the 2 involved , great. If It doesn't we don't need to be married.
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